Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 43

Thread: Z225 (DF27>Z225) - another early branch of DF27 with an Iberian connection

  1. #11
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,926
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    DF27, FGC15733
    mtDNA (M)
    T2f3

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Agreed. It's difficult but I try not to associate an STR Signature or a SNP identified branch with a geography, at least in the labeling.
    It might seem that you were trying harder if the caption of this thread (which you started) didn't say "with an Iberian connection." Just in case you'd like to change the caption...

    Anyway the testing bias that gets the most flak is that caused by FTDNA's selling tests most successfully in the North America, where most of the colonial populations were from western Europe (including btw both Iberia and France). But 1000 Genomes samples skew heavily in favor of Iberia. Without trying to suggest that one is right and the other wrong, I'm just pointing out that what one sees is a function of whom one tests. After new tests on different populations show a broader pattern, it's incumbent on us to try to adjust our thinking (and mapping) about these things.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to razyn For This Useful Post:

     lgmayka (01-07-2016)

  3. #12
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,014
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    It might seem that you were trying harder if the caption of this thread (which you started) didn't say "with an Iberian connection." Just in case you'd like to change the caption...
    ...
    This is the problem with PC, the next thing you know you can't mention words. I don't I think the word "connection" implies origin or prevalence.

    In fact, when I look at this quote from early in the thread it hardly shows I was pushing of "if you Z225 you are Iberian" concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Here are the early Z225+ people in our DNA projects. I guess we should not overlook that a German is in the group.... and of course our obligatory Isles person or two.

    fN94556 Garrido Z225+ Z229+ d225- uas Spain
    fN5479 Llana Z225+ Z229+ d225- uas Spain, Asturias, Pravia
    fN18213 Viverna Z225+ d225- uas France, Aquitaine, Pyrénées-Atlantiques, Abos
    f187084 Caspary Z225+ d225-2430 Germany, Hesse, Darmstadt, Frankfurt-EcKenh
    f95673 Austin Z225+ d225-9910 England
    f110924 Clark Z225+ Z229+ d225-9910 UK
    fN10566 Oliver Z225+ Z229+ d225-9910 UK
    f227823 zzzUnk(Oliver) Z225+ Z229+ d225-9910 zzzUnkOrigin
    f221362 zzzUnknown Z225+ Z229+ d225-9910 zzzUnkOrigin
    Still, I know there have been times I've associated a subclade with a location where there was still a great deal of uncertainty so I've been guilty at some point but just not this one as the proper context of "connection" was used.
    Last edited by Mikewww; 01-07-2016 at 06:38 PM.

  4. #13
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,926
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    DF27, FGC15733
    mtDNA (M)
    T2f3

    Didn't mean to imply that you made it up. The Iberian connection of Z225 was on DNA-Forums in 2011, not that we can see that any more. And at that time, the only data about Z225 came from 1kG samples. First published (I think) in Rocca et al, 2012. The fact that that can seem a long time ago is an indication of how fast the landscape shifts in this field of study.

  5. #14
    Banned
    Posts
    404
    Sex
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b>L21>Z253>L1066

    Ireland Germany England Netherlands Switzerland Scotland
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Agreed. It's difficult but I try not to associate an STR Signature or a SNP identified branch with a geography, at least in the labeling. A classic case has been brought on this thread. One haplotype modal was discovered and named Irish IV but quickly changed to Irish IV/Continental. Where did it come from and where is it most populous? Testing biases get in the way. Hence, in spreadsheets I end up with boring neutral names like 253-IT4. I see Alex is using IT3 for L226 now on the Big Tree. Of course, that's Irish Type III and the admins will call it Dalcassian some times.
    The Irish IV group itself is a good example of wrong early assumptions based on insufficient data, even apart from the "continental" label. When I started out in genetic genealogy, first learning the ropes, I came across the groups labelled Irish III, Irish IV, etc. Being Irish IV myself, I wanted to find out more, so I dug through all the online material. I was very confused for awhile, because much of the online material regarding Irish IV was contradictory. What I eventually realized was that the definition of Irish IV had changed since its inception, in order to force it to fit the moving target of the actual data. The original group had been much larger, and included multiple unrelated haplogroups that happened to have similar STR signatures, later shown to be unrelated. As the new data debunked the hypothetical Irish IV group, its definition was modified to be compatible with the new data. We would have been better off if the label had been completely abandoned to avoid confusion, but I think the inventors of the group were trying to save face.

    Getting back to Z225, here's a link to a paper credited to well known members of the community regarding DF27 and Z225: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3404022/

    "The concentration of Latin American/Iberian samples derived at DF27 shows the geographical importance of this marker in Iberia. That only Latin American samples were members of the DF27 subclade defined by the mutations Z225 and Z229 further illustrates strong Iberian ties and is consistent with the possibility of colonial era founders in the Americas."

    I generally respect the authors as qualified, unbiased scientists. But I think there's probably a tendency to jump to conclusions too soon in order to get credit for making a discovery, even when the scientist knows the sample size is much too small and the evidence flimsy. So we have many cases of haplogroups getting a reputation that doesn't hold up as the sample size grows.

    As Webb mentioned, British/Irish sampling bias has become the default argument to explain away distributions that don't fit the hypothesis or label. But a quick glance at the "Iberian Peninsula" project is enough to convince an unbiased observer that the sample bias is not nearly so bad as is often suggested. And for any statistician worth their salt, the sample size is easy enough to account for when comparing the concentration of various haplogroups. And 1000 Genomes, upon which many of the early labels were based, has its own sampling bias as well.
    Last edited by miiser; 01-07-2016 at 09:41 PM.

  6. #15
    Banned
    Posts
    404
    Sex
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b>L21>Z253>L1066

    Ireland Germany England Netherlands Switzerland Scotland
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    This is the problem with PC, the next thing you know you can't mention words. I don't I think the word "connection" implies origin or prevalence.

    In fact, when I look at this quote from early in the thread it hardly shows I was pushing of "if you Z225 you are Iberian" concept.



    Still, I know there have been times I've associated a subclade with a location where there was still a great deal of uncertainty so I've been guilty at some point but just not this one as the proper context of "connection" was used.
    But I think a fair question would be, why did the thread title explicitly mention "an Iberian connection" and not the German, French, or British Isles connections? It does suggest an intent to support a particular hypothesis.

    And, although you are somewhat fair in pointing out that there are quite a few non-Iberian samples, your commentary about each of the samples is still a little biased. The 3 UK samples get whittled down to "our obligatory Isles person or two", and you chose not to mention the French guy at all.
    Last edited by miiser; 01-07-2016 at 10:05 PM.

  7. #16
    Registered Users
    Posts
    21
    Sex

    I was z225, did the DF27 pack and am Y16018. Confirmed by NG and FTdna. Interestingly, this is being found in the Irish and I do believe that there is a connection with UK and Iberia just as there is a connection with the colonial Americas with z225 and Iberia. I wish I knew more about Y16018.

  8. #17
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,926
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    DF27, FGC15733
    mtDNA (M)
    T2f3

    One of the new BY SNPs, that shows up as a blue button in the haplotree displays for a lot of people who don't need to test for it, turns out to be a brother clade to Z225 (both under ZZ39 -- not that ZZ39 is on many trees, yet). So I have renamed the former group Pf; its members are now the new group Ib, just below Z225 and its subgroups. Some of the captions in groups beginning with I or P have also been revised, but the members are the same.

  9. #18
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,926
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    DF27, FGC15733
    mtDNA (M)
    T2f3

    Speaking of new subclades of Z225, and Iberians -- three "Z229" guys whose BigY results include about 32 Shared Novel Variants are on the Big Tree now (though their shared SNPs aren't, yet). Today I created a new subgroup Ia4 for them. All three report a Portuguese MDKA, so that will probably make several people happy. Regrettably, it will also probably reinforce their misconceptions about what it means. Oh well. It's a good thing to get the tree looking more accurate in its details.

    On the Big Tree there's a fifth top level subgroup of Z229 that would be something like group Ia5, if any of its bearers were FTDNA customers. They are all mystery guys, numbered among those relatively oversampled Iberians from the 1000 Genomes project. They share about 40+ SNPs; maybe S360/Z223 would be a good one to lead with -- it might turn up in some chip test results from which we can locate the actual testee.

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to razyn For This Useful Post:

     RCO (01-25-2017)

  11. #19
    Registered Users
    Posts
    955
    Sex
    Location
    Brazil
    Ethnicity
    Rio de Janeiro Colonial
    Nationality
    Brazilian
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1a1 FGC6064+ M365+
    mtDNA (M)
    H1ao1

    Suebi Kingdom Portugal 1143 Portugal 1485 Portugal Order of Christ Brazilian Empire Brazil
    What would be the TMRCA of the Portuguese Ia4 group ?
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
    MDKAs before Colonial Brazil
    Y-DNA - Milhazes, Barcelos, Minho, Portugal.
    mtDNA - Ilha Terceira, Azores, Portugal
    North_Swedish + PT + PT + PT @ 3.96 EUtest 4

  12. #20
    Registered Users
    Posts
    2,370
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    numbered among those relatively oversampled Iberians from the 1000 Genomes project
    But not oversampled relative to the British Isles which has even more BigY participants relative to the population.

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to ArmandoR1b For This Useful Post:

     Shadogowah (05-07-2019)

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 71
    Last Post: 06-28-2020, 11:01 PM
  2. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 07-27-2019, 01:53 AM
  3. Replies: 64
    Last Post: 04-27-2018, 11:09 AM
  4. Replies: 56
    Last Post: 12-20-2015, 05:54 PM
  5. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 09-28-2013, 05:49 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •