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Thread: [Split] Origins of the Philistines

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    [Split] Origins of the Philistines

    Quote Originally Posted by Heber View Post
    Ancient cemetery provides peek into Philistines’ lives, health

    Burial site of hundreds of Israelites’ mysterious enemies could yield clues to population’s origins

    SAN ANTONIO — A roughly 3,000-year-old cemetery on Israel’s coast is providing an unprecedented look at burial practices of the Philistines, a mysterious population known from the Old Testament for having battled the Israelites.

    Work at the Ashkelon cemetery from 2013 to 2016 has uncovered remains of at least 227 individuals, ranging from infants to older adults. Only a small section of the cemetery has been explored. Archaeologist and excavation director Adam Aja of the Harvard Semitic Museum estimates that approximately 1,200 people were interred there over a span of about 100 years.

    “For the first time, we have found a formal Philistine cemetery,” Aja said November 18 at the annual meeting of the American Schools of Oriental Research. Aja and his colleagues first announced having found the Philistine graveyard on July 10. He was among several researchers to present their latest findings about the cemetery at the meeting.

    "If DNA can be extracted from the Ashkelon skeletons, scientists may get a glimpse of where the Philistines originally came from. Evolutionary geneticist Johannes Krause of the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History in Jena, Germany, is currently directing efforts to retrieve genetic sequences from the Ashkelon bones."

    https://www.sciencenews.org/article/...s-lives-health

    This aDNA should be interesting. Are they related to the Sea Peoples, Luwians or Mycenae....?

    http://luwianstudies.org/iron-age/canaan-palestine/
    They clearly were of Aegean origin, an observation which seemingly counts for most of the Sea Peoples. I've actually spoken to the team which is working on this in Ashkelon a few years ago, I think the results might come as a surprise to many people.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    They clearly were of Aegean origin, an observation which seemingly counts for most of the Sea Peoples. I've actually spoken to the team which is working on this in Ashkelon a few years ago, I think the results might come as a surprise to many people.
    I expect G2a and some R subclades (like R1a and R-Z2103).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Romilius View Post
    I expect G2a and some R subclades (like R1a and R-Z2103).
    R? Seriously? J and clades of E-M35 are more likely. Infact we know that E-M35 sub clades Sailed across the Mediterranean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    They clearly were of Aegean origin, an observation which seemingly counts for most of the Sea Peoples. I've actually spoken to the team which is working on this in Ashkelon a few years ago, I think the results might come as a surprise to many people.
    I think they were Pelasgians. E-V13 therefore.
    Last edited by The_Lyonnist; 12-07-2016 at 04:53 PM.
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    I'd expect R1b-Z2103, J2a-M67, E-V13 and G2a alongside J1 and E-M35.1 in Philistine remains.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I'd expect R1b-Z2103, J2a-M67, E-V13 and G2a alongside J1 and E-M35.1 in Philistine remains.
    In other words, a Y-DNA profile almost akin to that of modern Jews!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I'd expect R1b-Z2103, J2a-M67, E-V13 and G2a alongside J1 and E-M35.1 in Philistine remains.
    As can be seen in my J2 Fb group comment I took into consideration which Hg's most likely arrived to Levant 3000 years ago instead of assuming a likely origin (Aegean/Pelasgians etc.). My favorites are J2 and R1a subclades. I'm confident some M67 subclades are among them for example. Not sure if they are in this Philistine grave sampleset. I wonder why V13, seems not diverse or present in Levant? About J1 and E-M35.1 will it be easy to distinguish "invading" lineages from those maybe present since at least a millennia earlier in Levant?
    Particularly interested in: DNA/Admixture from Historical Tyrol, Central Alps and related/connected populations; Y-DNA J2a-FGC16096, J2a-L210(xZ482), R1a-M17, R1b-U106; mtDNA J1b1b, J1c1d, U5a2b2, U5b1b1. Projects: Hidden Content , Hidden Content , J2a-PF5197, ISOGG Wiki, GenWiki (german)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    As can be seen in my J2 Fb group comment I took into consideration which Hg's most likely arrived to Levant 3000 years ago instead of assuming a likely origin (Aegean/Pelasgians etc.). My favorites are J2 and R1a subclades. I'm confident some M67 subclades are among them for example. Not sure if they are in this Philistine grave sampleset. I wonder why V13, seems not diverse or present in Levant? About J1 and E-M35.1 will it be easy to distinguish "invading" lineages from those maybe present since at least a millennia earlier in Levant?
    I very much agree with what you just wrote, however I have a hard time seeing how R1a could've arrived with the Philistines, the Mitannians are a better culprit if you ask me. I have no doubt we'll find J2a in the Philistine samples, E-V13 and J2b would also make a whole lot of sense considering how frequent these markers are in the Aegean. J1, E-M35.1, J2b1 and other similar lineages would most likely be local in origin and be tied to the Canaanites the Philistines mingled with, otherwise we could easily tell whether these lineages are intrusive by looking at the specific branches to which they are tied.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I very much agree with what you just wrote, however I have a hard time seeing how R1a could've arrived with the Philistines, the Mitannians are a better culprit if you ask me. I have no doubt we'll find J2a in the Philistine samples, E-V13 and J2b would also make a whole lot of sense considering how frequent these markers are in the Aegean. J1, E-M35.1, J2b1 and other similar lineages would most likely be local in origin and be tied to the Canaanites the Philistines mingled with, otherwise we could easily tell whether these lineages are intrusive by looking at the specific branches to which they are tied.
    Perhaps the Phillistines, rather than the Greeks, could explain the "Agean" or "Southern European" admixture found in most Western Jewish communities...
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    As can be seen in my J2 Fb group comment I took into consideration which Hg's most likely arrived to Levant 3000 years ago instead of assuming a likely origin (Aegean/Pelasgians etc.). My favorites are J2 and R1a subclades. I'm confident some M67 subclades are among them for example. Not sure if they are in this Philistine grave sampleset. I wonder why V13, seems not diverse or present in Levant? About J1 and E-M35.1 will it be easy to distinguish "invading" lineages from those maybe present since at least a millennia earlier in Levant?
    I think one needs to associate cyprus with the Levant and the paper below gives a lot of information on the 2

    https://investigativegenetics.biomed...323-016-0032-8


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