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Thread: Looking for info on CTS4179 > YP1420

  1. #1
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    Looking for info on CTS4179 > YP1420

    Hi everyone,

    I was recently tested through YSEQ's R1a-Z284 panel and it pinned me down as YP1420. I'd expected a different subclade and this was something of a surprise. I'm of Scottish descent and my family is originally from the Highlands/Western Isles (the exact area is lost in time).

    I know that R1a in Scotland is considered strong evidence of Viking/Norse paternal heritage, but I cannot find much info specifically on YP1420. This forum mentions it in another thread and there are a couple of other references available through a Google search, but that's pretty much it. If anyone has any knowledge or suggestions about the YP1420 subclade I'd be very interested in hearing it. I'd also welcome any suggestions of sites or forums where I could do more research. I'm not a member of FTDNA and I'm a bit loath to pay for my Y-DNA and panel testing all over again, but don't hold back if you think that's my best/only bet.

    One other thing - despite learning a lot in the past several weeks, I'm very new to DNA science. I apologize if this post comes across as noob-ish or if my questions break some kind of forum convention.

    Thanks in advance,
    A

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  3. #2
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    England Scotland Ireland
    YP1420 is an uncommon subclade of the large 'Norse' CTS4179 group , which is about 3,000 years old. See tree below for information on the descendent branches of CTS4179 .

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS4179/

    YP1420 individuals are found in Norway and Britain. It could have arrived in Scotland in an earlier period (after 1,000 BCE) or with Vikings - we don't know. More YP1420 individuals need to take the BigY for more to be discovered about it. There isn't much specific info on it anywhere really - only on its 'father' clade CTS4179 . See below for instance .

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...andinavian-R1a

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  5. #3
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    YP1420

    Quote Originally Posted by 8075 View Post
    Hi everyone,

    I was recently tested through YSEQ's R1a-Z284 panel and it pinned me down as YP1420. I'd expected a different subclade and this was something of a surprise. I'm of Scottish descent and my family is originally from the Highlands/Western Isles (the exact area is lost in time).

    I know that R1a in Scotland is considered strong evidence of Viking/Norse paternal heritage, but I cannot find much info specifically on YP1420. This forum mentions it in another thread and there are a couple of other references available through a Google search, but that's pretty much it. If anyone has any knowledge or suggestions about the YP1420 subclade I'd be very interested in hearing it. I'd also welcome any suggestions of sites or forums where I could do more research. I'm not a member of FTDNA and I'm a bit loath to pay for my Y-DNA and panel testing all over again, but don't hold back if you think that's my best/only bet.

    One other thing - despite learning a lot in the past several weeks, I'm very new to DNA science. I apologize if this post comes across as noob-ish or if my questions break some kind of forum convention.

    Thanks in advance,
    A
    I found your post in my own search for my haplotype, YP1420. The Chambers of County Mayo, Ireland are YP1420. Legend has it that the original name was MacAmbrois, Anglicized to McCambridge or Cambridge, and then to Chambers in Northern Ireland. McCambridge is still a common name in the Glens of Antrim. The families came over with the MacDonalds from Kintyre and Islay, a 20 mile sea crossing from Kintyre, Scotland. Legend also has it that the Chambers families were in County Tyrone and came into Mayo before Cromwell. I believe that they were Redshanks (Scottish seasonal mercenaries who fought for the O'Neals against the English.) They probably left Tyrone after the 1641 revolt failure before they were killed by Covenanter Redshanks.
    According to the Clan Donald website, the Chambers who are a Sept family of the Clan are 1 in 210 of people named Chambers. There are many unrelated patrilineal lines.
    I did take my test with FTDNA and am a member of several projects including "R1a and Subclades" and "R1a and all Subclades". I don't believe that you can join these projects but they are open to the public to view. YSearch was setup by FTDNA for others to join but it's not as comprehensive.
    The R1a projects have several YP1420 haplotypes; typically Norwegian. Other than Chambers, there are currently two Scottish names: Colquhoun (Calhoun) and McIntosh, both from the Highlands. In looking at their clan/surname projects the YP1420 is an anomaly; probably a "non-paternal event" from a Norwegian Viking.
    Typically the majority Scottish R1a Haplogroup people test positive for RL176, often called the Scottish mutation. YP1420 is a different branch off CTS4179.
    We are truly a minority of a minority.
    I am very interested in your Surname. I have been looking for a YP1420 (L176-) from the Western Scottish Isles just to prove the Chambers legend likely. There is also a likelihood that my Chambers Family from County Mayo descended from the Chambers Family of Hertfordshire. Their descendants in Britain are Norman Haplogroup "I" but that doesn't rule out a "non-paternal event", i.e. a Viking in the woodpile. (That also happened at a later date and the most famous British Chambers are bastard descendants of Sir Stepney.)
    Thanks
    Tim Chambers

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  7. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimC View Post
    I found your post in my own search for my haplotype, YP1420. The Chambers of County Mayo, Ireland are YP1420. Legend has it that the original name was MacAmbrois, Anglicized to McCambridge or Cambridge, and then to Chambers in Northern Ireland. McCambridge is still a common name in the Glens of Antrim. The families came over with the MacDonalds from Kintyre and Islay, a 20 mile sea crossing from Kintyre, Scotland. Legend also has it that the Chambers families were in County Tyrone and came into Mayo before Cromwell. I believe that they were Redshanks (Scottish seasonal mercenaries who fought for the O'Neals against the English.) They probably left Tyrone after the 1641 revolt failure before they were killed by Covenanter Redshanks.
    According to the Clan Donald website, the Chambers who are a Sept family of the Clan are 1 in 210 of people named Chambers. There are many unrelated patrilineal lines.
    I did take my test with FTDNA and am a member of several projects including "R1a and Subclades" and "R1a and all Subclades". I don't believe that you can join these projects but they are open to the public to view. YSearch was setup by FTDNA for others to join but it's not as comprehensive.
    The R1a projects have several YP1420 haplotypes; typically Norwegian. Other than Chambers, there are currently two Scottish names: Colquhoun (Calhoun) and McIntosh, both from the Highlands. In looking at their clan/surname projects the YP1420 is an anomaly; probably a "non-paternal event" from a Norwegian Viking.
    Typically the majority Scottish R1a Haplogroup people test positive for RL176, often called the Scottish mutation. YP1420 is a different branch off CTS4179.
    We are truly a minority of a minority.
    I am very interested in your Surname. I have been looking for a YP1420 (L176-) from the Western Scottish Isles just to prove the Chambers legend likely. There is also a likelihood that my Chambers Family from County Mayo descended from the Chambers Family of Hertfordshire. Their descendants in Britain are Norman Haplogroup "I" but that doesn't rule out a "non-paternal event", i.e. a Viking in the woodpile. (That also happened at a later date and the most famous British Chambers are bastard descendants of Sir Stepney.)
    Thanks
    Tim Chambers
    Hi Tim, I wanted to send you a PM but my post count is too low. I'll reply here instead, just with some identifying personal details redacted.

    I am indeed a member of Clan Donald - certainly by convention, and possibly by blood. Here's the story of my paternal line:

    My great x3 grandfather was born in Inverness-Shire in 1775. We do not know for certain what his surname was. At some point, he was evicted from the land he grew up on, and he took to piracy against the English Crown. He must have gained some notoriety because a bounty was put on his head. He was sheltered by Clanranald and moved to Nova Scotia in 1800 at the age of 25, where he married and had a large family. We know for certain that he spoke Gaelic and he was Catholic. My now-deceased uncle was once told by his great-uncle that our ancestor was not originally from Clanranald but instead came from a "lesser sept". There are some other place-names and guesses in my family lore but these are the only "facts" that we have.

    I originally tested with YSEQ so I could economically see where I fit into the Clan Donald USA DNA Project. The results came back as R1a but not as a direct descendant of Somerled or John of Islay. Then my subclade came back and threw me off even further - like yourself, I have only been able to find a few references to it, mostly in Norway. I just learnt that YSEQ is further testing me for YP5314, which is apparently a recently-discovered branch of YP1420.

    I hope this helps - it may not give you the evidence you're looking for but it certainly does nothing to disprove your family's legend. If you haven't already, you should check out the Clan Donald DNA Project (clandonaldusadotorg).

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  9. #5
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    Thanks for the info. I haven't looked at the Clan Donald website in years and will check it out again.
    Inverness Shire is huge and contains many Clans. Catholic and Gaelic speaking is a clue for the times your ancestor lived as it was for my ancestors. The closer to the old Kingdom of Dalriada in the Western Isles the more likely Gaelic was your first language. Most clans were Presbyterian or CofE by the 18th Century.
    As far as being a man with a bounty on his head, remember that the Crown owned everything and killing a deer for food garnered a death sentence in the 17th century and was still a serious crime in the 18th century.
    I'll keep looking for new YP1420's in the various projects and post when I see one.

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  11. #6
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    Greetings from Sweden;

    I've tested Y37-DNA at FTDNA and was originally classified as haplogroup R-M198, which later was specified as CTS4179. Since this is the subclade of L448, I've expected to be classified as belonging to the "Young Scandinavian branch" rather than the "Scottish" or "Old Viking". As recommended I've taken the Z284 SNP Pack to more narrow down my heritage. Results are expected now late in February or early March. Meanwhile however I've been classified as belonging to R-YP1420!

    Like some of you I searched for this to learn more and ended up here!. As far as I can see I'm the only one tested from Sweden so far having this haplogroup. Norway and Scotland being predominant (of 7 R-YP1420 NO 3, SCO 2, IRE 1) and "TimC" it seems, being one of these. The seven (7) of the 5,500+ tested in the database are therefore a very small and interesting group I seem to belong to - among with you then. In the same groups are R-M1982, R-Z283, R-L448, R-CTS4179 not being tested further, so additional persons may turn up.

    I have no Scottish ancestry as far as I know, but would really enjoy that. My paternal ancestry as far back as my 8th and 9th great-grandfather all the way to my father have been born and living in the same mid-central Swedish village since the early 1600's and maybe late 1500's.

    Looking forward to learn more from your input, and hopefully will have more details in a couple of weeks on my origin beyond YP1420.

    //"Roger"

    PS I pressed the wrong sex icon when I registered :-)
    Last edited by Roger Wilco; 02-21-2017 at 07:30 PM.

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  13. #7
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    Found an updated version of the R1a clades with the main SNP markers. See downstream of CTS4179.

    2017-02-22_13-33-12.jpg

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    Hi Roger
    YP1420 seems to be rare indeed although few people have tested this far. I expect that your ancestor in Sweden emigrated from Norway. It seems our R1a ancestors worked their way from Eastern Europe and came into Scandinavia on a northern route, eventually settling in Western Norway.
    With such a rare sub-haplotype it should be easy to trace the migration from Norway, but not enough people have been tested. Although my family is quite large in County Mayo, Ireland and relatives in the United States, so far, only a couple of names crop up in the Scottish Highlands and, according to their clan name DNA projects, the YP1420 (let alone R1a) is an anomaly.
    Tim

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  17. #9
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    Hi TimC

    yes, it would be fun to trace the connection to a common ancestor, probably in Norway, that then sent descendants east to Sweden and west to the Bristish isles. I've trace common markers in the Clan Donald project, an early branch consisting of McIntosh lineage, but as you say, too few have tested. My next goal is to do the Big Y test at FTDNA later this spring to get a comprehensive view.

    Currently the R-YP1420 people/common markers origin can be seen in the map attached.2017-02-23_15-03-07.jpg

  18. #10
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    Roger Wilco
    It looks like CTS4179 came into Sweeden fairly early. See
    http://sjolunds.se/dna-genealogi/?p=167
    Tim

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