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Thread: R L21 Project News

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by swid View Post
    Semi-related, when I was going through the haplotype spreadsheet, it's really amazing how far down the SNP tree most of the STR clusters have become identified with. Your work on the spreadsheet has also made it super-easy to provide SNP guidance on the generic "turns out I'm L21 or DF13, now what?" questions here and elsewhere.
    I'm hoping David S will post here but we have some new news about L21... unexpected.

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  3. #22
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    Looks like the cat's out of the bag on this one, as kit 329129 was found to be Z260+ Z245+ Z290+ Z21145+ L21- L429-.

    I also see that the L21 Yahoo group's name was updated. :-)

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by swid View Post
    Looks like the cat's out of the bag on this one, as kit 329129 was found to be Z260+ Z245+ Z290+ Z21145+ L21- L429-.

    I also see that the L21 Yahoo group's name was updated. :-)
    One of this kit's surname group members claims to be from Scotland, which, if true, has interesting implications for the history of L21, considering this branch is upstream of L21 and precedes the L21 MRCA by a few SNPs worth of time.
    Last edited by miiser; 02-12-2017 at 08:15 AM.

  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    I'm hoping David S will post here but we have some new news about L21... unexpected.
    Yep at long last we've a fellow who's positive for some of the L21 block but negative for others

    Z260+, Z245+, Z290+, L21-, L459-


    And how long did it take to hear the L21 from the Isles mantra ?

    All I'll say on that topic is if this gents Y-DNA ancestors were in the Isles for the last 4 to 5 thousand years they must have been remarkably quiet : ))))))

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  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    Yep at long last we've a fellow who's positive for some of the L21 block but negative for others

    Z260+, Z245+, Z290+, L21-, L459-


    And how long did it take to hear the L21 from the Isles mantra ?

    All I'll say on that topic is if this gents Y-DNA ancestors were in the Isles for the last 4 to 5 thousand years they must have been remarkably quiet : ))))))
    I'm not certain, but I think your comment is directed at me. So I'll just say once again that I don't have a strong opinion for L21 originating either inside or outside the Isles. I think the current evidence is consistent with both possibilities. This is in contrast to some members of this forum, who have taken a strong position against the possibility of L21 having originated in the Isles.

    But I can guarantee that some people have been very eager to identify a Continental based sibling to L21 as support for a Continental origin, as demonstrated by the myriad discussion threads that spring to life on this forum every time a single new Continental data point appears within the L21 project. A Continental sibling subclade of L21 would have altered the existing picture of an Isles concentration. But this new sibling branch under Z260 doesn't do that, instead strengthening the already clear picture of an Isles centric distribution.

    Your last comment regarding being "remarkably quiet" in the Isles doesn't make any sense to me, regardless of whether you are for or against an Isles origin for L21. No serious researcher denies that Bell Beaker has been in England since about 2500 BC. This is widely agreed upon by archaeologists. So if you believe that L21 arose within Bell Beaker culture (as I think you probably do based on your previous posts in other discussions), then your argument about them being quiet "for the last 4 to 5 thousand years" is misguided. There is plenty of evidence that Bell Beaker has been in the Isles for this amount of time.
    Last edited by miiser; 02-12-2017 at 12:49 PM.

  9. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by miiser View Post
    Your last comment regarding being "remarkably quiet" in the Isles doesn't make any sense to me
    He has very few matches at 67 and non that I'm aware of at 111 loci (and I'm not limiting myself to FTDNA's cut off point), considering how extensive the Isles is tested plus the myriad of folk with Y-DNA heritage from the Isles who live in the far flung corners of the world I think it improbable his Y-DNA ancestors were hibernating in the Isles since the Z260 L21 split.

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  11. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdean View Post
    He has very few matches at 67 and non that I'm aware of at 111 loci (and I'm not limiting myself to FTDNA's cut off point), considering how extensive the Isles is tested plus the myriad of folk with Y-DNA heritage from the Isles who live in the far flung corners of the world I think it improbable his Y-DNA ancestors were hibernating in the Isles since the Z260 L21 split.
    Indeed, he belongs to a small surname group who share a fairly recent MRCA from the southern US. And I'm skeptical of the claim that the lineage is from Scotland, which is why I said "if true" in my original comment. Some online trees appear to trace this lineage to Kent, England. I haven't personally verified the documentation for any of the trees, and don't know which are accurate and which are rubbish. And at any rate, I think it's likely that this surname group has been affected by an NPE at some point during the past thousand years, so I put no stock in the surname itself being in any way informative. If I had access to the kit, I would like to see if there are others with similar STR signatures that likely belong to the same haplogroup. I doubt that Reynolds is the original surname, so the surnames of matches in the 500-1000 year range may be more informative.

    But regardless of where the lineage originated, it is a rare lineage. I don't think the explanation needs to be that it's been quiet, but simply that it's a very small population, and this has got to be true whether it's small in the Isles or small on the Continent. Yes, we have a greater sampling rate from the Isles. But we also have thousands of samples from France, Germany, Spain, etc., and this subclade hasn't shown up in any of those places either. It seems that this is a struggling lineage, on its way to a near future extinction.
    Last edited by miiser; 02-12-2017 at 01:36 PM.

  12. #28
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    What this revelation shows is that there needs to be a lot more BigY testing all over Europe because the possibility of that branch being broken up by people in the continent is very good. Continental European BigY testing has a very long way to go compared to BigY testing of people with ancestry from the British Isles. Until there is an almost equal amount of testing in continental Europe there will be an erroneous hypothesis. Kit 329139 isn't even an ancient sample and people are jumping to conclusions already about what happened where.
    Last edited by ArmandoR1b; 02-12-2017 at 03:03 PM. Reason: kit number

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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by miiser View Post
    Indeed, he belongs to a small surname group who share a fairly recent MRCA from the southern US. And I'm skeptical of the claim that the lineage is from Scotland, which is why I said "if true" in my original comment. Some online trees appear to trace this lineage to Kent, England. I haven't personally verified the documentation for any of the trees, and don't know which are accurate and which are rubbish. And at any rate, I think it's likely that this surname group has been affected by an NPE at some point during the past thousand years, so I put no stock in the surname itself being in any way informative. If I had access to the kit, I would like to see if there are others with similar STR signatures that likely belong to the same haplogroup. I doubt that Reynolds is the original surname, so the surnames of matches in the 500-1000 year range may be more informative.

    But regardless of where the lineage originated, it is a rare lineage. I don't think the explanation needs to be that it's been quiet, but simply that it's a very small population, and this has got to be true whether it's small in the Isles or small on the Continent. Yes, we have a greater sampling rate from the Isles. But we also have thousands of samples from France, Germany, Spain, etc., and this subclade hasn't shown up in any of those places either. It seems that this is a struggling lineage, on its way to a near future extinction.
    Talk of NPEs and surnames is pretty irrelevant in my opinion, we are talking about a split from the main L21 branch which is at least 4 to 5 thousand yrs old

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  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by swid View Post
    Looks like the cat's out of the bag on this one, as kit 329129 was found to be Z260+ Z245+ Z290+ Z21145+ L21- L429-.

    I also see that the L21 Yahoo group's name was updated. :-)
    Is that supposed to read 329139?
    YSEQ:#37; YFull: YF01405 (Y Elite 2013)
    WGS (Full Genomes Nov 2015, YSEQ Feb 2019, Dante Mar 2019, FGC-10X Linked Reads Apr 2019, Dante-Nanopore May 2019) - further WGS tests pending ;-)
    Ancestry GCs: Scots in central Scotland & Ulster, Ireland; English in Yorkshire & Pennines
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