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Thread: Ancient R1a-M458 in Aral Sea, Southern Ural and Kuban River (Northern Caucasus)

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    Lightbulb Ancient R1a-M458 in Aral Sea, Southern Ural and Kuban River (Northern Caucasus)

    The R1a-M458 subclade migrated to the Tarim in the Bronze Age (First Migration), moving together with carriers R1a-Z93 from the West, from Europe. This First Migration was through the Southern Ural, and perhaps, the results of the paleo-DNA of Mezhovskaya culture with R1a-Z645 subclade relate to Proto-Tocharian population. The problem still is that researchers can not to tie with Proto-Tocharians a specific archaeological culture from the tribes of Andronovo-Srubna ethnic generality.

    The author of this study links the R1a-M458 subclade with the representatives of Tocharians-Celtic languages (the part of Centum group of the Indo-European languages).




    Look at here >>>

    http://suyun.info/index.php?LANG=ENG&p=3_05102016_8_4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulat View Post
    The R1a-M458 subclade migrated to the Tarim in the Bronze Age (First Migration), moving together with carriers R1a-Z93 from the West, from Europe. This First Migration was through the Southern Ural, and perhaps, the results of the paleo-DNA of Mezhovskaya culture with R1a-Z645 subclade relate to Proto-Tocharian population. The problem still is that researchers can not to tie with Proto-Tocharians a specific archaeological culture from the tribes of Andronovo-Srubna ethnic generality.

    The author of this study links the R1a-M458 subclade with the representatives of Tocharians-Celtic languages (the part of Centum group of the Indo-European languages).




    Look at here >>>

    http://suyun.info/index.php?LANG=ENG&p=3_05102016_8_4
    So we returned to the idea that only R1a has a role in IE spread?

  4. #3
    It looks very interesting. Are there confirmed M458 lineages? Is it possible that Tocharians carried M458?

    Who are people mentioned on the graph? Are they contemporary people? Or are they confimed ancient cases of M458+?

    Is it possible that lineages of M458 present in Poland (like L260 and CTS11962) come from non-Slavic people, but from the folk which was not Slavic in antiquity and was slavicised?
    Last edited by lyakh; 03-25-2017 at 05:55 PM.

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    The Nogais Y-DNA Project has only a small number of members, but one is confirmed R-M458.

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    I was under the understanding M458 is Slavic? How do we reconcile the occurrence of this haplogroup among the Tocharians?

    Does this suggest not all M458 is Slavic, or perhaps that M458 was absorbed by the Slavs?

    For example Albanian is indo European and most likely traveled with R1 lineages(I think R1b moreso). Yet, R1 lineages are less dominant(with exception of R1b), with the majority of Albanian lineages predating Indo European expansion. Does this suggest then that, just because a lineage is most commonly found in one ethnicity, that it doesn't necessarily mean it is originated from them, but absorbed by them?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    I was under the understanding M458 is Slavic? How do we reconcile the occurrence of this haplogroup among the Tocharians?

    Does this suggest not all M458 is Slavic, or perhaps that M458 was absorbed by the Slavs?

    For example Albanian is indo European and most likely traveled with R1 lineages(I think R1b moreso). Yet, R1 lineages are less dominant(with exception of R1b), with the majority of Albanian lineages predating Indo European expansion. Does this suggest then that, just because a lineage is most commonly found in one ethnicity, that it doesn't necessarily mean it is originated from them, but absorbed by them?
    Perhaps the Scythians/Sarmatians carried M458?

    I understand that most people say the Scythians/Sarmatians were Indo-Iranians, but I read an interesting article challenging that: https://www.google.com/amp/s/borisso...-language/amp/. I'm unframilair with the Scythians/Sarmatians, so i'd be interested to see what people here have to say about it.

    There is another thread on the forums here https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....mats-and-Alans... interesting possibility at least?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lyakh View Post
    It looks very interesting. Are there confirmed M458 lineages? Is it possible that Tocharians carried M458?

    Who are people mentioned on the graph?
    BEHPS642 = paleo-dna of Tarim.


    BEHPS232 and etc. = really men from R1a-M458 cluster, who lives now, modern men.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulat View Post
    BEHPS642 = paleo-dna of Tarim.


    BEHPS232 and etc. = really men from R1a-M458 cluster, who lives now, modern men.
    Quote Originally Posted by lyakh View Post
    It looks very interesting. Are there confirmed M458 lineages? Is it possible that Tocharians carried M458?

    Who are people mentioned on the graph? Are they contemporary people? Or are they confimed ancient cases of M458+?

    Is it possible that lineages of M458 present in Poland (like L260 and CTS11962) come from non-Slavic people, but from the folk which was not Slavic in antiquity and was slavicised?
    I read somewhere alot of basal M458 was showing up in Northern and Southern Kavkaz, among Nogai, and karakalpaks. In Shapsough and Adyghe upwards of 10-20 percent supposedly(according to one study). They belonged to L1029. I have a few shapsough and adyghe matches(albeit very far back) that are L1029-YP263. Its elevation in these peoples is what led me to the hypothesis that it was carried by Volga Bulgars, and Pannonian Avars. It's occurrence in central Europe and the Balkans correlating to their rule, with I2-Din/Z280 being more characteristic of Slavic tribes.

    Though I understand this is problematic for some, to assume it is not originally Slavic would lead to a dilemma considering its overwhelming elevation in central Europe. Tying these folk to Z93 only makes it seem like the mark they left was but a whimper.

    I even have a founder effect in my line(found only in Albanians so far). On the Russian forums someone claimed these occurrences were Slavs that were assimilated and not native. What is your position? If basal M458 is showing up alot in these areas, it could be a hint as to its possible origin point. Much like basal M420 is mostly found in Iran. Though if Tocharians were M458, how the hell did it make it this far west into Europe? Pannonian Avars? Volga Bulgars? Proto-Slavs? All 3?

    I know ancient times were very turbulent, so I am not as quick as some to assign absolutes as to the nature of its origin. Especially with the lack of ADNA to give it any strength of argument. The position that is pushed by many to assign a completely unanimous Slavic character to the line is bias to say the least. It is purely motivated by modern distributions which aren't characteristic of the past.

    My personal theory is that its occurrence in the Balkans is primary due to Volga Bulgars, Avars, and Proto-Slavs. Though I believe(given its dominance among them) that Z280/I2-Din are more characteristic of the Slavic tribes.

    There are mainy writings(to be taken with grain of salt of course) that the west Slavic tribes that rebelled against the Avar rule were themselves born of Avar men, and Slavic women, overthrowing their masters. This tidbit makes me think some M458 could be the result of the Avars. Otherwise when you strip it away, these peoples barely left a genetic mark anywhere they went. This doesn't exactly add up when we are told how common rape, and concubines were among these steppe folk.

    Its occurrence in Adyghe are also interesting. They are very against mixing from what I have read. Assuming it is indeed Proto-Slavic, it would have had to be absorbed into them sometime in the late iron age for it to have passed all this time as native tribesman.
    Last edited by Dibran; 09-29-2018 at 03:06 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bulat View Post
    BEHPS642 = paleo-dna of Tarim.


    BEHPS232 and etc. = really men from R1a-M458 cluster, who lives now, modern men.
    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    The Nogais Y-DNA Project has only a small number of members, but one is confirmed R-M458.
    Here is the paper that mentioned M458 among these folk. In Circassian folk that is. Shapsug, Adyghe, Dargins.

    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/702...cb705135ad.pdf

    Paper Mention of M458 in Nogai: " Although some of these European haplotypes (R1a-M458) are also found among Turkic-speaking Nogais, Karanogais and Volga Tatars (Supplementary Fig. 7)"

    Volga is where the Bulgars spread from. I wouldn't be surprised if a significant amount of M458 in the Balkans is linked to Bulgars and or Avars. After all, it reaches its highest amounts in the regions ruled by the Bulgars, Romania, Bulgaria, Macedonia etc. it drops significantly throughout the rest of the Balkans.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/srep30197




    I can't read this paper but according to these M458 graphs, it appears to reach 25 percent in some cases. More than many Slavic populations outside of Poles and maybe Bulgars.

    https://www.academia.edu/14671212/Mu...December_2014_
    Last edited by Dibran; 09-29-2018 at 03:36 AM.
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    The hotspot for R1a-M458 in terms of both diversity and frequency is Poland and Belarus.

    This has nothing to do with any migrations from the Caucasus and everything to do with R1a-Z645-rich, Corded Ware-derived Trzciniec people.

    Also, keep in mind that North Caucasians have Eastern European admixture, and some of them have a lot of it, while Poles don't have any North Caucasian ancestry that wasn't mediated through R1a-rich Corded Ware.

    Btw, I'm skeptical that the Tarim Basin mummies and Tocharians belonged to R1a-M458. PCR- and STR-based ancient DNA results are often wrong, so we have to wait until they're validated by shotgun or capture NGS data.

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