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Thread: Caucasian in South Asian

  1. #1
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    Caucasian in South Asian

    Hey all,

    Could someone help me break down what it means that a lot of those who are identified as South Asian see tons of Caucasian in their admixtures?

    I'm reading there is some Kurdish, or Turkic in us. What's the current data on the topic?

    I know my Pakstani/Indian history but not really anything on the "other" part of my admixture. I should add that some of the stuff that others talk about goes over my head. If someone could break down to layperson terms.

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    Could someone help me break down what it means that a lot of those who are identified as South Asian see tons of Caucasian in their admixtures?
    It means You have tons of Indo European ancestry. Yamna had some 50% of CHG. While Yamna like component is indispensable to model IE South Asians. Look at Lazaridis et al 2016 for that.

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    Here is the model. Yamna related groups are classified as Steppe EMBA in this graph.


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    Majority of it(in South Asia) is related to Iranian Neolithic(and possibly Iran ChL) than to steppe groups

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arame View Post
    It means You have tons of Indo European ancestry. Yamna had some 50% of CHG. While Yamna like component is indispensable to model IE South Asians. Look at Lazaridis et al 2016 for that.
    You are very wrong with this assumption. CHG is much more indegious to region of Eastern Turkey- South Caucaus-Iran Zagros line which can be associated with proto -Dravidian speaking pre historic tribes rather then proto Indo European. CHG in Yamnaya might be happened due to interaction with steppe populations and native CHG populations in North Caucaus. On the other hand paternal line of Yamnaya (R1b-Z2103) not so widespread over CHG based modern populations except Assyrians and Armenians. Most probably the reason for this is the Yamnaya Effect on South Caucaus but not CHG effect on Yamnaya.And you might be right on "Yamna like component is indispensable to model IE South Asians".

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    Yes I'd tend to agree. It's better to refer to specifics like Satsurblia-Kotias, Armenian Chalcolithic/ EBA, Iran Neolithic & Chalcolithic.
    Some Kotias ancestry came with movements from Armenian Highlands, others with a MBA steppe group. It'll depend on the individual.
    If he really wants to know he should submit to Dave's Global plot and we can analyse it.
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 12-28-2016 at 01:53 PM.

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  12. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJRocks760 View Post
    Hey all,

    Could someone help me break down what it means that a lot of those who are identified as South Asian see tons of Caucasian in their admixtures?

    I'm reading there is some Kurdish, or Turkic in us. What's the current data on the topic?

    I know my Pakstani/Indian history but not really anything on the "other" part of my admixture. I should add that some of the stuff that others talk about goes over my head. If someone could break down to layperson terms.
    IMO this Causcasian/Iran Neolithic is very old and not that related to historical events.

    Let's assume that Y-R is related to PIE. Next we have to delineate the two main types of Y-R in South Asia. One Y-R2 is shared with Iran Neolithic and the other Y-R1a is shared with the steppe.

    IMO, Afanasevo in conjunction with Rakhigarhi will be the key to understanding how this Y-R movement came about. I have been of the opinion that R coming from the Baikal has been present continuously in the Eurasian steppe region since MA1.


    http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms9912

    In the above we see the Kotias/CHG like affecting the more southern groups and Afanasevo like affecting the northern ones. It would be a reasonable assumption that the latter is the IE one.

    It is also my thinking that this Afanasevo like also moved west and brought R1a to Europe with Corded Ware.
    Davidski at Eurogenes at one time had noticed something similar:
    One of the most intriguing admixture edges I picked up runs from the branch leading to Afanasievo to the base of the branch leading to Corded Ware (see tree5 below).

    If this isn't an artifact of the methods - and I think not, because this admixture edge is also one of the most easily reproducible - then it has some interesting implications. For instance, it suggests that the origin of the Corded Ware Culture was not in the western part of the Yamnaya horizon or nearby, as is often assumed, but much further east, perhaps where the ancestors of the Afanasievo pastoralists began their migration to the Altai region. Maybe somewhere north of the Caspian?...

    So this looks like more than just broadly similar admixture events. Also, if it turns out that the Tarim Basin mummies did get their R1a from Afanasievo, then we could be looking at the movements of basically the same people both to the west and east even before Yamnaya got really going.
    [To clarify, I believe he does not not support the above scenario.]


    We saw some support of a movement from the Inner Eurasian steppe to Europe here: http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/12/19/094243
    "Y. pestis may have entered Europe from Central Eurasia during an expansion of steppe pastoralists ... Phylogenetic analysis of the two reconstructed Y. pestis genomes from the Altai region shows that they occupy a phylogenetic position ancestral to all medieval and extant Y. pestis strains"

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    CHG is much more indegious to region of Eastern Turkey- South Caucaus-Iran Zagros line which can be associated with proto -Dravidian
    Anabasis

    The IBS map of Kotias



    Do You see South Indian Dravidians having strong affinity with Kotias? I don't see.

    If You don't trust Srkz's map. This is a map from the link posted by parasar

    http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms9912/figures/4

    As for the rest. Who said the contrary? Me?


    Btw there was no CHG in South Zagros in Neolithic.
    It came there only at Chalcholithic. The first signs of CHG started to appear at Late Neolithic. Associated with G2a1 Y dna.
    Old presence of CHG in South Asia is even more impossible. Only Iran Neo like stuff.
    Last edited by Arame; 12-30-2016 at 08:46 AM.

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    Arame

    The impression I get is that Satsurblia/ Kotias and Iran Neolithic are basically the same population.
    It's just that Iran Neolithic has more Onge/Ust-Ishm admixture, and more Basal.
    Given that there is a gap between Zarzian levels in Iran and the pre-Ceramic Neolithic ones, a case can be made for a recolonization of the Zagros by a population extremely similar to Satsurblia. This obviously happened already by 10000 BC.

    Iran_Neolithic:WC1
    "Satsurblia:SATP" 86.85
    "Ust_Ishim" 10.45
    "Israel_Natufian:I0861" 2.7
    "Villabruna:I9030" 0
    "MA1:MA1" 0
    "AfontovaGora3:I9050.damage" 0
    Last edited by Gravetto-Danubian; 12-30-2016 at 10:04 AM.

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