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Thread: Caucasian in South Asian

  1. #11
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    Kotias , Iran_N, Iran Hotu are all part of the same family of peoples , with Kotias , CHG having a villabruna shift and Iran_N /Iran Hotu shifting more in SW Asian and South Asian direction.
    Ultimately the ethnogenesis of these peoples happened in Iran for sure, local Basal Eurasians mixing up with Malta Buret people arriving from Central Asia.

    One interesting I observed through Genetikers phenotype analysis , is Iran_N peoples shared traits more akin to those found in MA-1 , ie dark brown skin, dark eyes and black hair
    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2016...-ancient-iran/

    CHG on the other had the derived SLC24A5 gene and were relatively light skinned.

    The so called Caucasus is mainly coming Neolithic Iranians who arrived in South Asia 10 kya and/or the demic diffusion of mixed Steppe and Central Asian/BMAC agriculturalist(also mainly Iran_N descended) populations that diffused across NW South Asia the in the Bronze age.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    Kotias , Iran_N, Iran Hotu are all part of the same family of peoples , with Kotias , CHG having a villabruna shift and Iran_N /Iran Hotu shifting more in SW Asian and South Asian direction.
    Ultimately the ethnogenesis of these peoples happened in Iran for sure, local Basal Eurasians mixing up with Malta Buret people arriving from Central Asia.

    One interesting I observed through Genetikers phenotype analysis , is Iran_N peoples shared traits more akin to those found in MA-1 , ie dark brown skin, dark eyes and black hair
    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2016...-ancient-iran/

    CHG on the other had the derived SLC24A5 gene and were relatively light skinned.

    The so called Caucasus is mainly coming Neolithic Iranians who arrived in South Asia 10 kya and/or the demic diffusion of mixed Steppe and Central Asian/BMAC agriculturalist(also mainly Iran_N descended) populations that diffused across NW South Asia the in the Bronze age.
    A few points:

    As you say derived SLC24A5 was present in CHG. But it is also present in about 50% on the Singhalese who are about as dark colored as any on the Subcontinent. SLC45A2 on the other hand is indeed a distinguishing feature.

    Also: "Derived SLC24A5 rs1426654 alleles can also be observed in the AH1, AH4, and F38 individuals" AH1 and AH4 are Neolithic Iranians. http://science.sciencemag.org/conten...oushaki.SM.pdf

    Another issue, while WC1 looks closest to modern populations from the subcontinent, we also see this from formal stats: "D-statistics show that Kotias is a better surrogate for Ancestral North Indians than GD13a ... For all modern southern Asian populations we tested, Kotias was a better putative source than GD13a (Fig. S9, Table S6)." http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/s...1/059568-1.pdf


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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    A few points:

    As you say derived SLC24A5 was present in CHG. But it is also present in about 50% on the Singhalese who are about as dark colored as any on the Subcontinent. SLC45A2 on the other hand is indeed a distinguishing feature.

    Also: "Derived SLC24A5 rs1426654 alleles can also be observed in the AH1, AH4, and F38 individuals" AH1 and AH4 are Neolithic Iranians. http://science.sciencemag.org/conten...oushaki.SM.pdf

    Another issue, while WC1 looks closest to modern populations from the subcontinent, we also see this from formal stats: "D-statistics show that Kotias is a better surrogate for Ancestral North Indians than GD13a ... For all modern southern Asian populations we tested, Kotias was a better putative source than GD13a (Fig. S9, Table S6)." http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/s...1/059568-1.pdf


    1. Singhalese are modern day peoples, I was comparing 2 ancient populations so your point is moot.

    2. That paper came out before more indepth papers on Iran_N populations came out. Clearly Steppe admixture is very low to nil in most Central/South Indian populations as they seem to be mainly 2 way mixes between Neolithic Iranians and local Paniya like foragers. Also your taking those papers out of context in regards to SLC45A2.
    I do not posit too much in D stats, some users have modelled Pania as 40% Iran_N (thankfully he was banned) and Kurds as having as much Steppe and Iran_N dna as some SC Asian populations, both of which are ridiculous.
    Last edited by pegasus; 01-03-2017 at 02:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    1. Singhalese are modern day peoples, I was comparing 2 ancient populations so your point is moot.

    2. That paper came out before more indepth papers on Iran_N populations came out. Clearly Steppe admixture is very low to nil in most Central/South Indian populations as they seem to be mainly 2 way mixes between Neolithic Iranians and local Paniya like foragers. Also your taking those papers out of context in regards to SLC45A2.
    I do not posit too much in D stats, some users have modelled Pania as 40% Iran_N and Kurds as having as much Steppe and Iran_N dna as some SC Asian populations, both of which are ridiculous.
    No it is not, as Iran Neolithic samples AH1 and AH4 are derived at SLC24A5 too.

    Plus I did not bring up SLC45A2 in context of those papers. I just pointed out that SLC45A2 is the real distinguishing marker for skin color, not SLC24A5.

    Why do you think Kurds can't have as much steppe and Iran N as some SC Asian populations?
    Any why can't the Paniya can't have a 40% overlap with a sample like WC1?

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  9. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJRocks760 View Post
    Hey all,

    Could someone help me break down what it means that a lot of those who are identified as South Asian see tons of Caucasian in their admixtures?

    I'm reading there is some Kurdish, or Turkic in us. What's the current data on the topic?

    I know my Pakstani/Indian history but not really anything on the "other" part of my admixture. I should add that some of the stuff that others talk about goes over my head. If someone could break down to layperson terms.
    you dont have Kurdish or Turkish in you . it is just Iran_Neolithic component
    Kurdish people gallery/thread -

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    As you say derived SLC24A5 was present in CHG. But it is also present in about 50% on the Singhalese who are about as dark colored as any on the Subcontinent. SLC45A2 on the other hand is indeed a distinguishing feature.
    If a population has reached near fixation with SLC24A5's derived A allele at the rs1426654 SNP (like with Europeans) then you're essentially looking at 25-40% the pigmentation difference between Europeans and Afro-Carribs. Or, roughly an average 10 point drop in the Melanin Index... 50% derived is not that much though and they may even be like Somalis where we're 60% derived but many are AG instead of being AA. Nevertheless, being 50% derived is interesting given their substantive non-West-Eurasian ancestry; implies their West-Eurasian predecessors were quite derived, in humble opinion. And, perhaps similar to what I and some others think regarding the ancestors of Horners and the North-Sudanese, the Sinhalese' mixed ancestors may very well have selected for further pigmentation than the initial mixing produced given their environment:

     


    Effectively losing the derived G allele at SLC45A2's rs16891982 SNP as well, which does seem to be the case with Horn Africans (especially the likes of Beta Israels and Habeshas who lack the allele but definitely had Yemenite-Jew/Copt-like ancestors (see here and here) who most likely carried it while Somalis possibly did have Levant_N-like ancestors who carried it as well).

    I recommend reading this study: http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetic...l.pgen.1003912
    Last edited by Awale; 01-03-2017 at 02:57 AM.

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  13. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    No it is not, as Iran Neolithic samples AH1 and AH4 are derived at SLC24A5 too.

    Plus I did not bring up SLC45A2 in context of those papers. I just pointed out that SLC45A2 is the real distinguishing marker for skin color, not SLC24A5.

    Why do you think Kurds can't have as much steppe and Iran N as some SC Asian populations?
    Any why can't the Paniya can't have a 40% overlap with a sample like WC1?
    I think thats pretty self explanatory . Again ur taking things out of context. Pania cannot be modelled as 40% Iran_N , land Parasar its a clear day.

    Another tidbit , in regards to Kotias. CHG like ancestry in South Asians came with Steppe populations not Chalcolithic Iranians, because they lack the Barcin Anatolian rich ancestry you see in many West Asians. So that creates a paradox you have huge swathes of populations , which do have low or nil steppe ancestry but do have significant "ANI" ancestry , that clearly is coming from Iran_N peoples.
    Last edited by pegasus; 01-03-2017 at 02:20 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Awale View Post
    If a population has reached near fixation with SLC24A5's derived A allele at the rs1426654 SNP (like with Europeans) then you're essentially looking at 25-40% the pigmentation difference between Europeans and Afro-Carribs. Or, roughly an average 10 point drop in the Melanin Index... 50% derived is not that much though and they may even be like Somalis where we're 60% derived but many are AG instead of being AA. Nevertheless, being 50% derived is interesting given their substantive non-West-Eurasian ancestry; implies their West-Eurasian predecessors were quite derived, in humble opinion. And, perhaps similar to what I and some others think regarding the ancestors of Horners and the North-Sudanese, the Sinhalese' mixed ancestors may very well have selected for further pigmentation than the initial mixing produced given their environment:

     


    Effectively losing the derived C allele at SLC45A2's rs16891982 SNP as well, which does seem to be the case with Horn Africans (especially the likes of Beta Israels and Habeshas who lack the allele but definitely had Yemenite-Jew/Copt-like ancestors (see here and here) who most likely carried it while Somalis possibly did have Levant_N-like ancestors who carried it as well).

    I recommend reading this study: http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetic...l.pgen.1003912
    Yes I have read that one on IBD.
    Another one making a similar point:
    http://www.g3journal.org/content/3/11/2059.full
    "Virtually all chromosomes carrying the A111T allele share a single 78-kb haplotype that we call C11, indicating that all instances of this mutation in human populations share a common origin. The C11 haplotype was most likely created by a crossover between two haplotypes, followed by the A111T mutation. The two parental precursor haplotypes are found from East Asia to the Americas but are nearly absent in Africa ... To learn about the time and location of origin of the A111T mutation, we studied haplotypes in the region around SLC24A5 across world populations ... the greatest diversity of B-region haplotypes associated with C11 is found in GIH (89% B6)."

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  16. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Why do you think Kurds can't have as much steppe and Iran N as some SC Asian populations?
    Hmm, regarding just their steppe ancestry... I find it hard to believe that they're remotely as steppic as some SC Asians (i.e. Afghan Pashtuns). Kurds have always just seemed barely distinguishable from Plateau Iranians like various Persian speakers... Only perhaps sometimes more Near Eastern-shifted versions of said Plateau Iranians (which makes sense geographically):

    http://oi67.tinypic.com/2vjzlm1.jpg
    http://oi63.tinypic.com/okwxms.jpg

    I mean look at how they cluster in respect to Iran_Chls and ELBA steppe populations:

     


    I'd say Kurds are probably pretty indigenous to the Near East overall.

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  18. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awale View Post
    Hmm, regarding just their steppe ancestry... I find it hard to believe that they're remotely as steppic as some SC Asians (i.e. Afghan Pashtuns). Kurds have always just seemed barely distinguishable from Plateau Iranians like various Persian speakers... Only perhaps sometimes more Near Eastern-shifted versions of said Plateau Iranians (which makes sense geographically):

    http://oi67.tinypic.com/2vjzlm1.jpg
    http://oi63.tinypic.com/okwxms.jpg

    I mean look at how they cluster in respect to Iran_Chls and ELBA steppe populations:

     


    I'd say Kurds are probably pretty indigenous to the Near East overall.


    I am not seeing what you are seeing....the distance from the center of the cluster marked "Kurdish" to the 2 Andronovo samples is actually less than the distance from most of the SC Asian samples (grey Xs) to the 2 Andronovo samples.

    This said, a PCA is actually not the best tool for figuring out how much steppe ancestry groups such as Kurds and Pashtuns have, for a couple of reasons:

    - The 2 dimensions, PC1 and PC2 can't capture all the genetic variation in the samples;
    - If the PCA is ADMIXTURE based then the output changes every time you change the number or type of samples in the dataset, and/or the component references. ADMIXTURE is driven by allele sharing at a few positions, resulting from recent interactions between individuals. It is no coincidence that an ADMIXTURE based PCA mirrors geographical location of the samples. Thus, expectedly Kurds cluster with Iranians, and Pashtuns cluster with other SC Asians.


    The major papers use formal stats which directly compare 2 samples or 2 pops to gauge shared drift between them. The dstats I posted at http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...estry-in-Kurds, which directly compare Kurds, W Asians, and SC Asians with steppe pops show that Kurds share more drift with pretty much all the steppe groups than most of their neighbors, and many SC Asians. This likely reflects ancient genetic input originating in Pontic-Caspian steppe and Central Asia, something that is not accurately picked up with ADMIXTURE.


    Just for kicks, I will run IBD comparisons later between Kurds, W Asians, and SC Asians, with steppe groups.

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