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Thread: Ancient Hebrews, Ancient Egyptians and others' phenotypes tangent

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    Ancient Hebrews, Ancient Egyptians and others' phenotypes tangent

    Very interesting tangent!

    I can see why there'd be multiple interpretations of a definitive "race" for Ancient Hebrews, I've come across many compelling scriptural and pictorial arguments -- some more convincing than others

    @Awale - great job debunking the Khazar theory btw -- I'll admit, I once thought The 13th Tribe by Arthur Koestler was credible I've been meaning to leave a positive comment on the blog but wanted to first create an alias name on google+ -- I know it's a sensitive topic for some: "Anthromadness: The Khazar Theory: Give it a Rest"



    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I'm quite sure it does, however the Israelites per se emerged during the Late Bronze Age some 3,200 years ago, if Egyptian depictions of "Asiatic" groups are anything to go off these people certainly didn't look like contemporary Sub-Saharan Africans.
    This was the first image that came to mind when you referred to Ancient Egyptian depictions of "Israelites per se":
     

    - there's a few modern depictions of this image online but this is the real fresco from Beni Hasan. No one can claim without a doubt that these are Ancient Hebrews but since they've been stated as coming from the same Syro-Palestinian region and came to A.E. around the same purported time as Jacob, they're therefore billed by many as being a probable depiction of what A.H. looked like during these biblical times (~twenty-ninth century B.C). There's inscriptions on this mural that refer to persons on the top of the image as Hyksos (misinterpreted as "Shepherd Kings), the same type of Asiatics that took over northern Egypt centuries later -- the persons at the bottom with complexions more akin to SSAs would be AEs



    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Well actually, I'd take issue with "Hamitic" but at the end of the day, both terms are inaccurate if you ask me. The main problem with "Hamito-Semitic", on linguistic grounds, is that it implies a neat divide between Semitic and the rest of the Afroasiatic family, which isn't the case. Then there's all the racial weight of this term, prior to Joseph Greenberg's revolutionary book The Languages Of Africa, linguists used to lump most of the African languages they didn't understand into a "Hamitic" category, based on "racial" traits shared between the groups which ended up in this category.
    I also refrain from using the term "Hamitic" but my mother's Eastern-Sudanic Kakwa tribe are still referred to as Nilo-Hamites -- I think it's usage in Uganda is more an outdated reference related to their language than any kind of "racial" categorization -- other Ugandan "Nilo-Hamites" would be the Karamajong and Teso -- their language is still remotely intelligible to the Maasai. This linguistic group is said to have dispersed from South-Western Ethiopia near lake Turkana in the ~1600s. At an autosmal level, this side of my family has no Cushitic/Western-Semitic ancestry although before dispersing across Sudan and into Uganda, I wouldn't doubt Proto-Eastern Sudanic speakers probably had a sizable Cushitic-like affinity like the Turkana speakers from where they're said to have dispersed.
    Last edited by Angoliga; 12-22-2016 at 02:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NiloSaharan View Post
    This was the first image that came to mind when you referred to Ancient Egyptian depictions of "Israelites per se":
     

    - there's a few modern depictions of this image online but this is the real fresco from Beni Hasan. No one can claim without a doubt that these are Ancient Hebrews but since they've been stated as coming from the same Syro-Palestinian region and came to A.E. around the same purported time as Jacob, they're therefore billed by many as being a probable depiction of what A.H. looked like during these biblical times (~twenty-ninth century B.C). There's inscriptions on this mural that refer to persons on the top of the image as Hyksos (misinterpreted as "Shepherd Kings), the same type of Asiatics that took over northern Egypt centuries later -- the persons at the bottom with complexions more akin to SSAs would be AEs
    Ah yes, the so-called "caravan of Ibsha", a typical Egyptian representation of "Asiatics" and a very famous fresco indeed... Since this depiction dates back to the Middle Bronze Age, these people were in all likeliness NW Semitic speakers (I think the closest approximation to what they spoke would resemble Amorite with peculiar Canaanite features), probably akin to the people who would later become Canaanites, and part of a larger migratory movement from the Levant which brought about a succession of NW Semitic pharaohs (from the XIIIth dynasty onwards) and lead to the brutal rise and fall of the Hyksos during the Second Intermediate Period. Personally, I strongly suspect the presence of basal J1-ZS241* (my branch of J1-YSC234) in Egypt is tied to these events.

    While these people clearly predate the emergence of the Proto-Israelites, it's quite wise to assume that they didn't look all that different. The depictions I had in mind were those of the Shasu and other Levantine groups under the tutelage of Egypt during the Late Bronze Age.

    I also refrain from using the term "Hamitic" but my mother's Eastern-Sudanic Kakwa tribe are still referred to as Nilo-Hamites -- I think it's usage in Uganda is more an outdated reference related to their language than any kind of "racial" categorization -- other Ugandan "Nilo-Hamites" would be the Karamajong and Teso -- their language is still remotely intelligible to the Maasai. This linguistic group is said to have dispersed from South-Western Ethiopia near lake Turkana in the ~1600s. At an autosmal level, this side of my family has no Cushitic/Western-Semitic ancestry although before dispersing across Sudan and into Uganda, I wouldn't doubt Proto-Eastern Sudanic speakers probably had a sizable Cushitic-like affinity like the Turkana speakers from where they're said to have dispersed.
    It's also used in French, old habits die hard I guess. But that's somewhat understandable in your case, since the relations between different Nilo-Saharan groups are unclear, the use of this "Nilo-Hamite" label was initially designed to avoid further confusion, now it does just that. From a linguistic standpoint, Nilo-Saharan is woefully understudied.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 12-22-2016 at 03:17 AM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Ah yes, the so-called "caravan of Ibsha", a typical Egyptian representation of "Asiatics" and a very famous fresco indeed... Since this depiction dates back to the Middle Bronze Age, these people were in all likeliness NW Semitic speakers (I think the closest approximation to what they spoke would resemble Amorite with peculiar Canaanite features), probably akin to the people who would later become Canaanites, and part of a larger migratory movement from the Levant which brought about a succession of NW Semitic pharaohs (from the XIIIth dynasty onwards) and lead to the brutal rise and fall of the Hyksos during the Second Intermediate Period. Personally, I strongly suspect the presence of basal J1-ZS241* (my branch of J1-YSC234) in Egypt is tied to these events.

    While these people clearly predate the emergence of the Proto-Israelites, it's quite wise to assume that they didn't look all that different. The depictions I had in mind were those of the Shasu and other Levantine groups under the tutelage of Egypt during the Late Bronze Age.



    It's also used in French, old habits die hard I guess. But that's somewhat understandable in your case, since the relations between different Nilo-Saharan groups are unclear, the use of this "Nilo-Hamite" label was initially designed to avoid further confusion, now it does just that. From a linguistic standpoint, Nilo-Saharan is woefully understudied.
    Do you think these folks could also explain some of the "odd" E-M34 lineages found in Egypt (notably among Copts)?
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    “The unexamined life is not worth living.”
    ― Socrates

    “There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
    ― Socrates

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    Quote Originally Posted by Power77 View Post
    Do you think these folks could also explain some of the "odd" E-M34 lineages found in Egypt (notably among Copts)?
    That's a possibility, but we need to know the exact branch under M34 to make a fair assessment.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    That's a possibility, but we need to know the exact branch under M34 to make a fair assessment.
    Thanks for the info. As for the phenotypes, don't you think that these Beni Hassan "Hebrews" look like a mixture of Italian "Guidos" and Israelis?
    Last edited by Power77; 12-22-2016 at 06:20 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by NiloSaharan View Post
    @Awale - great job debunking the Khazar theory btw -- I'll admit, I once thought The 13th Tribe by Arthur Koestler was credible I've been meaning to leave a positive comment on the blog but wanted to first create an alias name on google+ -- I know it's a sensitive topic for some: "Anthromadness: The Khazar Theory: Give it a Rest"
    Sheikh Awale Ismail is humbled by the compliments, my good sir. But eh, I think that post was a little weak since I slightly relied on "Appeal to Authority" there. This post is much better, in my humble opinion, because I entirely relied on straight-forward data to back up my point. Basically showing that Western-Jews are simply some sort of Mediterranean population of partial Southern European (I'd say Mainland Greek or Tuscan-like) and Levantine roots (I'd say Samaritan/Lebanese_Christian/Levant_Bronze Age-like).

    But that post you liked is still one I'm satisfied with nonetheless.
    Last edited by Awale; 12-22-2016 at 09:48 AM.
    فار عارابإ آ واجإب اه

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    Quote Originally Posted by NiloSaharan View Post
    Very interesting tangent!

    I can see why there'd be multiple interpretations of a definitive "race" for Ancient Hebrews, I've come across many compelling scriptural and pictorial arguments -- some more convincing than others

    @Awale - great job debunking the Khazar theory btw -- I'll admit, I once thought The 13th Tribe by Arthur Koestler was credible I've been meaning to leave a positive comment on the blog but wanted to first create an alias name on google+ -- I know it's a sensitive topic for some: "Anthromadness: The Khazar Theory: Give it a Rest"





    This was the first image that came to mind when you referred to Ancient Egyptian depictions of "Israelites per se":
     

    - there's a few modern depictions of this image online but this is the real fresco from Beni Hasan. No one can claim without a doubt that these are Ancient Hebrews but since they've been stated as coming from the same Syro-Palestinian region and came to A.E. around the same purported time as Jacob, they're therefore billed by many as being a probable depiction of what A.H. looked like during these biblical times (~twenty-ninth century B.C). There's inscriptions on this mural that refer to persons on the top of the image as Hyksos (misinterpreted as "Shepherd Kings), the same type of Asiatics that took over northern Egypt centuries later -- the persons at the bottom with complexions more akin to SSAs would be AEs
    The "Asiatics" look identical in almost all respects to how Ethiopians depicted themselves. Complexions, etc. lol ethiopia-icons200x1501.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yahanon View Post
    The "Asiatics" look identical in almost all respects to how Ethiopians depicted themselves. Complexions, etc. lol ethiopia-icons200x1501.jpg
    I don't see much resemblance between the two, maybe apart from the hair...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Power77 View Post
    I don't see much resemblance between the two, maybe apart from the hair...
    Indeed. Seconded...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Awale View Post
    Indeed. Seconded...
    Because the Ethiopians' complexion is a lighter brown than both other groups?

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