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Thread: Z195 and SRY2627 in Flanders - New paper

  1. #1
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    Z195 and SRY2627 in Flanders - New paper

    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to R.Rocca For This Useful Post:

     Gray Fox (05-21-2013)

  3. #2
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    Thanks for sharing this. Were both snp's tested or just Z195? Also, could you share the percentage map like you did with L21 guys? Thanks again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam_Isaack View Post
    Thanks for sharing this. Were both snp's tested or just Z195? Also, could you share the percentage map like you did with L21 guys? Thanks again.
    No problem Sam. Unfortunately, this is the only graphic they provided that shows Z195 and SRY2627:



    They only broke out L21 because of the W-E cline they found in present times.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    If we accept P312* as a proxy for DF27 (and I don't think either you or I really do, where the rubber hits the road -- but it has been alleged in a few map captions, etc.), then of the total P312 in this charted population, DF27 outnumbers U152 by 45% to 34%, and outnumbers L21 by 45% to 23%. The percentages in the reddish pie chart add up to 102%, so there's a little rounding upward of someone's decimal places -- but I think the broader trend should be clear.

    What it means may still be unclear. But I'm thinking about direction(s) of expansion of these clades, as you are; and I just want that factoid noticed, along with other factoids about west to east, what happened in the late 16th century, and so on. Nobody has mentioned importation of Flemish weavers, dairy pastoralism, the arrival of the Bell Beakers, the great age of Portuguese potters, or the Spanjools... quite yet. But if those things arise, again, these charts might need to arise in the same deliberations.

    Pretty cool that academe is finally beginning to notice us. Really, it's only been two years and a few weeks since there was a test available for Z196, and under one year for DF27. But living it, one forum post at a time, has seemed to take pretty long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    If we accept P312* as a proxy for DF27 (and I don't think either you or I really do, where the rubber hits the road -- but it has been alleged in a few map captions, etc.), then of the total P312 in this charted population, DF27 outnumbers U152 by 45% to 34%, and outnumbers L21 by 45% to 23%. The percentages in the reddish pie chart add up to 102%, so there's a little rounding upward of someone's decimal places -- but I think the broader trend should be clear.

    What it means may still be unclear. But I'm thinking about direction(s) of expansion of these clades, as you are; and I just want that factoid noticed, along with other factoids about west to east, what happened in the late 16th century, and so on. Nobody has mentioned importation of Flemish weavers, dairy pastoralism, the arrival of the Bell Beakers, the great age of Portuguese potters, or the Spanjools... quite yet. But if those things arise, again, these charts might need to arise in the same deliberations.

    Pretty cool that academe is finally beginning to notice us. Really, it's only been two years and a few weeks since there was a test available for Z196, and under one year for DF27. But living it, one forum post at a time, has seemed to take pretty long.
    In the past I used P312* as a proxy for DF27, but only for Iberia. I did so because of the 1000 Genomes data where 95.2% of Iberian P312* samples turned out to be DF27+. That percentage is actually higher now (96.2%) with Phase III data coming in. This has been reinforced by FTDNA testing where Iberian P312* folks are now 97.7% DF27+.

    P312* in the isles, or Italy or the Low Countries is a different matter altogether as it has not turned out to be as high in DF27. Still, I'd imagine that the number is still on the somewhat high end (60-80%??) even when taking DF19, L238 and the remaining P312** into account.

    Now about the paper...I found it interesting that the two areas of highest Z195+SRY2627 frequency is in Noord-Brabant and Limburg. Both areas have the Meuse River running the length of their borders.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    It would be nice if they did a matching set of data for Wallonia (French speaking Belgium) at the moment this only gives us an insight into Dutch speaking half. Still it's a start, good to see Z195 included in an academic paper. Hopefully other studies will start to use as a result.

    -Paul
    (DF41+)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dubhthach View Post
    It would be nice if they did a matching set of data for Wallonia (French speaking Belgium) at the moment this only gives us an insight into Dutch speaking half. Still it's a start, good to see Z195 included in an academic paper. Hopefully other studies will start to use as a result.

    -Paul
    (DF41+)
    They did compare Flemish Surnames with French Surnames within the area and the only groups which were statistically significant were Z381 (Flemish = 9.6%, French = 1.5%) and L21 (Flemish = 6.5%, French = 13.8%)
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    In the past I used P312* as a proxy for DF27, but only for Iberia. I did so because of the 1000 Genomes data where 95.2% of Iberian P312* samples turned out to be DF27+. That percentage is actually higher now (96.2%) with Phase III data coming in. This has been reinforced by FTDNA testing where Iberian P312* folks are now 97.7% DF27+.

    P312* in the isles, or Italy or the Low Countries is a different matter altogether as it has not turned out to be as high in DF27. Still, I'd imagine that the number is still on the somewhat high end (60-80%??) even when taking DF19, L238 and the remaining P312** into account.

    Now about the paper...I found it interesting that the two areas of highest Z195+SRY2627 frequency is in Noord-Brabant and Limburg. Both areas have the Meuse River running the length of their borders.
    I have a distant family match with Vanderhoofs of Beesd, Netherlands. We both were curious about Flanders as there is a number of instances of Flemish migration into the British Isles. There were a large number of Flemish with the Normans and then again around 1300 with the displaced Flemish weavers. According to MJost's calculations I share a common ancestor with the Vanderhoofs at around 1060 AD, give or take 500 years, which really narrows it down. Humour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    They did compare Flemish Surnames with French Surnames within the area and the only groups which were statistically significant were Z381 (Flemish = 9.6%, French = 1.5%) and L21 (Flemish = 6.5%, French = 13.8%)
    What was there there definition of a "French surname" eg. as in originating in France, or one that is "French language" origin? The reason I ask of course is that half of the territory of Belgium is "french" (reality Walloon and Picard) speaking. One would imagine the main flow of "french surnames" would come from the rest of Belgium as oppose to France proper.

    Still good to see some difference on stats. What was the statistical difference between "flemish surnames" and "french surnames" when it came to P312*?

    -Paul
    (DF41+)

  11. #10
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    I'm sort of captivated by the concept of adding P312*, SRY2627 and Z195, in this project, and speculating that it's primarily composed of DF27 -- with a sprinkling of DF19, and probably almost no L238, or P312** of yet-unknown subclades. That's based on what has turned up so far in this project: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/atlantic-r1b1c/ -- that is, one Belgian (I don't know whether he's Flemish) and 3-4 Netherlanders (or Nieder-something else), among the 63 tested or suggested DF19 guys. I don't believe any of the tested L238 or P312** people so far have reported a MDKA from the Low Countries, at all. Or if they have, it's hard to see. I haven't explored Mike's somewhat more comprehensive Excel tables, nor Molgen -- just wanted a general impression. And it's my impression that most of these guys will be DF27, of one sort or another.

    And incidentally, the verbiage of this Flanders paper indicates that they tested for M153; but the tables indicate that they didn't find any. Would that be likely, if these results significantly reflect events of the late 16th century? I have no data about the presence or absence of Basques in the Spanish military/naval population of that time.

    Anyway -- whether or not it's valid to lump together the non-L21, non-U152 parts of the red (P312) pie chart and call it "DF27" (the quotation marks here are ironic, standing for "so-called"), I have done so; and I must say, I see little or no correlation with the Meuse River, per se. The heaviest concentration of "DF27" is 17.5% in Antwerp; but it's not markedly more concentrated there than in most of the rest of Flanders, on or off the Meuse -- ranging from 13.9% to 17%, with only one striking contrast. That is West Vlaanderen, region 4 in the study, in which it's only 8%.

    And btw these are percentages of the whole sampled population, not of the P312 component of it (140 of the 948 samples, or 14.8% overall). I used the table of those for whom genealogical data were available to indicate the region of their "ORPA," oldest reported paternal ancestor. But a quick check of the separate table showing present locations of those sampled indicates very little difference in these trends.

    As indicated in my previous post on this thread, and evident on the red (P312) chart from the paper, U152 and L21 account for substantially smaller percentages than "DF27."

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