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Thread: L21 in Flanders - New Paper

  1. #1
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    L21 in Flanders - New Paper

    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Thanks, Rich. I see that is one of those pay-to-read papers. Can someone provide a copy or can we get the salient details, like percentage of L21 in Flanders, etc.?

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    Sure, I sent it to Jean for inclusion in her library. I must say, this is as good a study as you will see.

    Here is the west-east cline for L21:



    So it looks like L21 frequency has increased in the West in the last 400 years or so, going from 4-6% regionally to 5-14%.
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 05-21-2013 at 02:31 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Could part of this be driven by internal migration from Wallonia. After all the region in general has been united in one form or other since Burgundian period during the middle ages. (Followed by Hapsburgs).

    It would be interesting to have similiar studies for surronding areas to see what direction the increase in L21 could be coming from.

    -Paul
    (DF41+)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    Sure, I sent it to Jean for inclusion in her library. I must say, this is as good a study as you will see.

    Here is the west-east cline for L21:

    http://r1b.org/imgs/West-East_Cline.jpg

    So it looks like L21 frequency has increased in the West in the last 400 years or so, going from 4-6% regionally to 5-14%.
    Here is a map of the regions of Belgium to make it easier to visualize.
    http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...um_RegProv.png

    I think it might be useful to know the older (in Belgium) L21 (4-6%) that was more evenly scattered east to west - no cline. This would more likely be a remnant. We know all about the historic movements of the Germanic peoples out of the Jutland and its neck into the Low Countries. L21 might have had higher percentages prior to this. Any guesses on the L21 frequency pre-Caesar?

    Is there a haplogroup frequency map in the study that might let us look us speculate on the frequencies with U106 pulled out? probably some I1 and R1a pulled out too?

    Speaking of U106, if U106 is much heavier than I1 and R1a this might be further evidence that U106 is not from Scandinavia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Here is a map of the regions of Belgium to make it easier to visualize.
    http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...um_RegProv.png

    I think it might be useful to know the older (in Belgium) L21 (4-6%) that was more evenly scattered east to west - no cline. This would more likely be a remnant. We know all about the historic movements of the Germanic peoples out of the Jutland and its neck into the Low Countries. L21 might have had higher percentages prior to this. Any guesses on the L21 frequency pre-Caesar?

    Is there a haplogroup frequency map in the study that might let us look us speculate on the frequencies with U106 pulled out? probably some I1 and R1a pulled out too?
    They did not provide frequency maps, but they did provide a subclade breakdown of U106, P312 and G from the present dataset ...



    U152 makes up 32% of the P312 lineages with L21 showing a respectable 23%. DF27 is impossible to guess at given that only Z195 was tested (10%) and DF19 and other SNPs might be at play in the overall P312* number.

    Interestingly this paper shows a W-E cline for L21 and their prior paper showed a S-N cline for U152. This clearly shows an advancement of these two groups from France over the past 3-4 centuries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    Speaking of U106, if U106 is much heavier than I1 and R1a this might be further evidence that U106 is not from Scandinavia.
    In the genealogical dataset, I1 and I1c are a combined 10-16%. It is strongest in the west and lowest in the north and east. R1a is low in most areas (3-4%) and only shows up higher in the east (8.0%). It is very low in the north (1.5%) and on the coast (0.9%). Directionally, R1a would seem to have come from the east and not the north or the coast with I1 clearly coastal. U106 seems to be much stronger in the north and the west and blows the doors off of I1+R1a in terms of frequency.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by R.Rocca; 05-21-2013 at 03:14 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    I wrote on another thread:

    They did compare Flemish Surnames with French Surnames within the area and the only groups which were statistically significant were Z381 (Flemish = 9.6%, French = 1.5%) and L21 (Flemish = 6.5%, French = 13.8%)
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard A. Rocca View Post
    I wrote on another thread:

    They did compare Flemish Surnames with French Surnames within the area and the only groups which were statistically significant were Z381 (Flemish = 9.6%, French = 1.5%) and L21 (Flemish = 6.5%, French = 13.8%)
    Paul D has made a good point on another thread. I'm not saying that Richard R has tried to do this but some could use the % French names that are L21 and try to project that back to France. This would probably be an error. For one thing, France is much larger and there are probably large variances between region and maybe even at the department level.

    Importantly, as Paul noted, much of Belgium is considered Wallonia and there are a lot of French speakers there.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallonia
    The study is of Flanders specifically, not all of Belgium and so the French surnamed people in Flanders might be more likely to have come from Wallonia rather than from France proper.

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    Larmuseau writes this in the paper:
    Finally, another genetic differentiation within Flanders was found earlier between an autochthonous Flemish surnames group (AFS) and a French/Roman Surnames group (FRS), the latter being the remnant of a past gene flow event from Northern France to Flanders at the end of the 16th century

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    The thing is that these areas have been part of common territory with French speaking areas (Wallonia) for the guts of 600 years. They were all basically put together by the Burgundian's (Philip the Good) and then inherited by the Hapsburgs. Thence been Spanish territories during the Dutch Revoult (80 year war) and then eventually what is now Belgium been under Austrian control.



    Spanish Netherlands during the 16th century:


    Of course Flanders was considered a "fief" of the Kingdom of France, however only part of the medieval "County of Flanders" is now within modern France (Nord, Pas de Calais). Given the interconnection with Wallonia for so long it would seem most logical that "french language" surnames may have a higher probability for origin in Wallonia.

    -Paul
    (DF41+)

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