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Thread: Is possibly metallurgy born with hunter-gatherers ?

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    Is possibly metallurgy born with hunter-gatherers ?

    Hi ! I would like to ask a question about an idea. The actual consensus about metallurgy its, that it was born in different places of the world but, everywhere linked with some kind of " farming civilization ? ". But if, early metallurgy, cold forging, or at least the metal was found by HG and work by sedentary people, was in fact born with hunter gatherers. I base my little idea of the fact that both Balkans and Caucasus, shows trade between sedentary farmers and obsidian, flint and others minerals finders whoes like in northern europe mesolithic people linked with hunter-gatherers. If we think rationnaly of the link between farming and metallurgy there is a total contradiction in the " way of thinking " of these two differents cultural entity. Do somebody knows some archeological sites where metallurgy seems to live without real farming society ? One of the archeological sites and natural region for wich a pattern like that can be accepted seems to be Caucasus and Maykop culture, but even before we see in Samara Culture and Khwalynsk a kind of proto-chalcolitic culture and proto-herding, that can be a consequence of trade between Steppe / Caucasus with Balkan / Transcaucasia.

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    Metallurgy followed agriculture in the Near East and most other places, including the Caucasus and the Maykop culture specifically.

    There are a few exceptions, such as the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon , but this developed long after metallurgy had been invented.

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    I'm not clear what you are asking. Certainly there were hunter-gatherer groups who mined native copper and other metals and worked it. I can't think of any that smelted metal. But what do you mean by "a total contradiction in way of thinking"?

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    Hi ! No, what i mean is, all hunter-gatherers of the world have, in a time or another in history, trade, minerals, rocks, ( flint, obsidian, maybe meteoritic iron... ) On the other side, i think that people, even scientists put, Farming, Herding, Metallurgy in a big Neolithic Package without reasoning, why should Farmers ( primarly aceramical farmers ) discover, herding, metallurgy, pottery, just like that, by ingenuity. My point is that when you farm, with your clan, you have to found a place, build house, grow crops, entertain animals... In all that, you take the time to go in mountain found Ores, or more ridiculous, a cultural effect make you go with your neolithic package in mountains... Thats just a non-sens and a contradiction with Farmers highest priority ( Crops ). Hoewver, if you are a farming society and you can with exchange of your crops and your animals found ores and later developped metallurgy, life become more easy and it creates a new level of society, where farmers develope art of metallurgy and HG wich was used for the finding of metals, recieve animals and crops in exchange, but selection and HG semi-nomadism, can have create the first herding society of the world. But we can also say, that farmers knows how to do and make everything, juste by being... well farmers...

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    obsidian, flint and others minerals finders
    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Hi ! No, what i mean is, all hunter-gatherers of the world have, in a time or another in history, trade, minerals, rocks, ( flint, obsidian... )
    There is a dramatic difference in technology between making tools from stone (which goes back to archaic hominins) and smelting ores. Neanderthals made stone tools. No-one is suggesting that they smelted copper.
    Last edited by Jean M; 01-04-2017 at 06:20 PM.

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    No, i mean that HG where the first ores miners who trade their find with Farmers Smelters, wich create social stratification, and new luxury fashion wich gonna culmine in Bronze Age Creta, where people almost letting themselves die, because they were trade Luxury goods apart of food... My 2nd theory is that, the trade between HG and Farmers, Ores in a direction, Crops and Animals in another, create the first herding population, because cultural traits like semi-nomadism in HG or sedentary farmer demic explosions, can make the forcing for the creation of a new kind of society. Also, farming could have been too complicated and culturaly different for HG so they let down crops for focusing on animals. Don-dnieper for Balkans and Samara / Khvalynsk for Caucasus, would be the new society of herding by the previous R1a HG carpathians and R1b HG on eastern frange of the caucasus or heaven further south.
    Last edited by halfalp; 01-04-2017 at 06:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    No, i mean that HG where the first ores miners who trade their find with Farmers Smelters..
    There is no evidence of that at all. The Neolithic farmers were not smelters. The Copper Age follows the Neolithic. Certainly the first people to develop the techology did so within a farming economy. Just as the first people who developed farming were descended from hunter-gatherers. But copper-working became a speciality. It began in areas which had copper ore, as you might imagine. Easy access to copper ore enabled experimentation. See http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/metal.shtml

    Trading in copper ore was a later development and was not carried out by hunter-gatherers. There were specialist miners and smelters in places with plentiful ore, such as Cyprus. Farming had begun on Cyprus thousands of years earlier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    ............. HG so they let down crops for focusing on animals. Don-dnieper for Balkans and Samara / Khvalynsk for Caucasus, would be the new society of herding by the previous R1a HG carpathians and R1b HG on eastern frange of the caucasus or heaven further south.

    I0122 & I0433 R1a/b [5200-4000 BCE+/-]Khvalynsk. On PCA


    The 367 copper artifacts in the graves, mostly beads and rings, are
    the oldest copper objects in the Volga-Ural steppes, and trace elements and manufacturing
    methods in a few objects suggest trade with southeastern Europe.......... the circulation of so much copper, which increased in SE Europe after 4700
    BCE, suggests that a date after 4700 BCE would be reasonable for many graves at
    Khvalynsk.
    http://www.biorxiv.org/content/early...%3Fcollection=

    Pločnik distance from Khvalunsk[no proof that the copper came from Pločnik site] Southeastren Europe ?
    I will let you do the math.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Silesian; 01-05-2017 at 12:18 AM.

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    You all dont understand my point, but its normal. In neolithic europe, we see neolithic cultures, with both autosomal dna from early farmers and hunter-gatherers but you can not make local difference, from a culture, maybe one was more HG and the other Farmer, its here, that my theory going up, Metallurgy and Herding is for me in total opposition with farming and sedentary, herding going with semi-nomadism and Ores Mining with local resources, Only Farming ( Cr ops ) And Smelting are sedentary cultural traiits, and its not right because few years ago, the consensus was, that metallurgy was not born in communities, but with individual smelters who where semi-nomadic and going to sedentary culture propose is knowledge,, so europe neolithic was a mixed element. In fact, people put together, the " neolithic package " with the early farmers coming from near east, my theory, is a regional developpement, of farming, herding and metallurgy, from meta-population of european HG and european Farmers. The consensus is that metallurgy is born in near east, wich is crap, is born in balkan, and travaled after in ural and caucasus.
    Last edited by halfalp; 01-05-2017 at 11:42 AM.

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    I see metallurgy and herding, like adaptation for the first, to the more ancient rocks trade and herding like an adaptation to ancient farmers, but i dont put these two inovations with proper farmers. Wich a think make my point clear.

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