Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 23

Thread: Y-DNA Y-STR 111 Marker Match/Mismatch With Arab man

  1. #1
    J Man
    Guest

    Y-DNA Y-STR 111 Marker Match/Mismatch With Arab man

    Hello All,

    This is kind of a continuation on about a thread I created a while back about a 37 marker match that I have with an Arab man. My cousin also matches with this man slightly closer at 37 markers but I am waiting for his 111 marker upgrade so for now I will just be talking about my match/mismatch with this Arab man. My direct paternal line comes from the Calabria region of Italy as I already mentioned and he comes from Saudi Arabia. He and I have a genetic distance of 4 at 37 markers but now that he has upgraded to 111 markers he and I now have a genetic distance of 19 at 111 markers. Family Tree DNA says that two men who have more than a genetic distance of 10 at 111 markers do not share a MRCA within a ''genealogical'' time frame but their relationship is ''historical'' or ''anthropological''. So considering now that this Arab man and I have a genetic distance of 19 at 111 markers how far back in time approximately may he and I share a MRCA?

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to J Man For This Useful Post:

     Angoliga (01-26-2017),  dp (01-12-2017),  Power77 (01-11-2017)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,200
    Sex
    Location
    Brazil
    Ethnicity
    Rio de Janeiro Colonial
    Nationality
    Brazilian
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1a1 FGC6064+ M365+
    mtDNA (M)
    H1ao1

    Suebi Kingdom Portugal 1143 Portugal 1485 Portugal Order of Christ Brazilian Empire Brazil
    I would say far more than 2000 years at least.
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
    MDKAs before Colonial Brazil
    Y-DNA - Milhazes, Barcelos, Minho, Portugal.
    mtDNA - Ilha Terceira, Azores, Portugal
    North_Swedish + PT + PT + PT @ 3.96 EUtest 4

  4. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to RCO For This Useful Post:

     dp (01-12-2017),  Power77 (01-11-2017),  rms2 (01-12-2017)

  5. #3
    Banned
    Posts
    13,888
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-Z253>BY93500
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    Hello All,

    This is kind of a continuation on about a thread I created a while back about a 37 marker match that I have with an Arab man. My cousin also matches with this man slightly closer at 37 markers but I am waiting for his 111 marker upgrade so for now I will just be talking about my match/mismatch with this Arab man. My direct paternal line comes from the Calabria region of Italy as I already mentioned and he comes from Saudi Arabia. He and I have a genetic distance of 4 at 37 markers but now that he has upgraded to 111 markers he and I now have a genetic distance of 19 at 111 markers. Family Tree DNA says that two men who have more than a genetic distance of 10 at 111 markers do not share a MRCA within a ''genealogical'' time frame but their relationship is ''historical'' or ''anthropological''. So considering now that this Arab man and I have a genetic distance of 19 at 111 markers how far back in time approximately may he and I share a MRCA?
    I agree with RCO. This "match" is virtually meaningless for you.

    If you recall, I said before that you would see the spread increasing beyond 37 markers. It really has.
    Last edited by rms2; 01-12-2017 at 12:06 PM. Reason: Error.

  6. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     dp (01-12-2017),  Power77 (01-12-2017)

  7. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    296
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Portuguese
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b DF27
    mtDNA (M)
    H5a2
    Y-DNA (M)
    R-L21 Z251
    mtDNA (P)
    T1a1

    Portugal
    Quote Originally Posted by J Man View Post
    Family Tree DNA says that two men who have more than a genetic distance of 10 at 111 markers do not share a MRCA within a ''genealogical'' time frame but their relationship is ''historical'' or ''anthropological''. So considering now that this Arab man and I have a genetic distance of 19 at 111 markers how far back in time approximately may he and I share a MRCA?
    A historical match is a match and I find those much more interesting than genealogical ones (frankly, I don't care much about who my ancestors were in the last 500 years). If your MRCA lived in the times of the Roman Empire, that's fascinating. If you want to know more, get yourselves Big Ys and upload the data to YFull. Those are the samples I'm always looking for.

  8. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Lugus For This Useful Post:

     Angoliga (01-26-2017),  RCO (01-12-2017)

  9. #5
    Banned
    Posts
    13,888
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-Z253>BY93500
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by Lugus View Post
    A historical match is a match . . .
    Not much. At that distance, they may not even belong to the same subclade. Such "matches" are so remote they really aren't much more than an indication that the two men belong to the same y haplogroup.

    Just my opinion.

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Táltos (01-12-2017)

  11. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    296
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Portuguese
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b DF27
    mtDNA (M)
    H5a2
    Y-DNA (M)
    R-L21 Z251
    mtDNA (P)
    T1a1

    Portugal
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Not much. At that distance, they may not even belong to the same subclade. Such "matches" are so remote they really aren't much more than an indication that the two men belong to the same y haplogroup.

    Just my opinion.
    The only way to know is to do Big Ys. My closest SNP match in historical times (900 ybp according to YFull) and in the same subclade is GD 6 at 37 markers, 2 SNPs closer than a GD 4 match.

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Lugus For This Useful Post:

     Angoliga (01-26-2017),  JMcB (01-13-2017)

  13. #7
    Banned
    Posts
    13,888
    Sex
    Location
    Virginia, USA
    Ethnicity
    British and Irish
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-DF41>FGC36981
    mtDNA (M)
    U5a2c3a
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-Z253>BY93500
    mtDNA (P)
    K1a1a

    Wales Ireland Scotland France Bretagne England Switzerland
    Quote Originally Posted by Lugus View Post
    The only way to know is to do Big Ys. My closest SNP match in historical times (900 ybp according to YFull) and in the same subclade is GD 6 at 37 markers, 2 SNPs closer than a GD 4 match.
    That demonstrates that haplotype neighbors at that distance at 37 markers aren't reliable matches. I have a 37-marker "match" (33/37) who is R1b-U106, so not even in the same subclade I am in.

    I'm not that interested in remote matches unless one of them turns out to come via ancient y-dna.

  14. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to rms2 For This Useful Post:

     Amerijoe (01-12-2017),  dp (01-12-2017),  JMcB (01-13-2017)

  15. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    296
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Portuguese
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b DF27
    mtDNA (M)
    H5a2
    Y-DNA (M)
    R-L21 Z251
    mtDNA (P)
    T1a1

    Portugal
    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    That demonstrates that haplotype neighbors at that distance at 37 markers aren't reliable matches. I have a 37-marker "match" (33/37) who is R1b-U106, so not even in the same subclade I am in.

    I'm not that interested in remote matches unless one of them turns out to come via ancient y-dna.
    Yes, you definitely have to be careful with STRs, SNPs always have the last word.

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Lugus For This Useful Post:

     dp (01-12-2017)

  17. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    4,246
    Sex
    Location
    Tierra de Ayllon
    Y-DNA (P)
    U152>L2>Z49>Z142>
    mtDNA (M)
    H1bt
    Y-DNA (M)
    I2a2a1b2a1b1>Y4925
    mtDNA (P)
    H37

    England Scotland Wales Germany Ireland Sweden Finns
    Quote Originally Posted by Lugus View Post
    A historical match is a match and I find those much more interesting than genealogical ones (frankly, I don't care much about who my ancestors were in the last 500 years). If your MRCA lived in the times of the Roman Empire, that's fascinating. If you want to know more, get yourselves Big Ys and upload the data to YFull. Those are the samples I'm always looking for.
    I have a similar situation. My father's closest STR match above 25 markers is a GD of 6 at 37 markers, GD=9 at 67 markers, and GD=10 at 111 markers. This same match is also my father's closest SNP match. According to Yfull our MRCA lived around 1000 years ago. Using the http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html tool it says there's a 50% chance our MRCA lived within the last 540 years, and 95% chance it was within the last 840 years.

    This match has a 37 marker match at GD=1 (GD=6 with my father), who is on our subclade FGC12384/FGC12385. Also these two matches share a chromosome (chr) 8 segment with each other (my father doesn't have any autosomal matches with either man)

    So we're in the gray area...just outside the genealogical timeframe yet still relatively recent.

    I've spent a lot of time of late attempting to figure out how these two men above are related. This effort has produced results. Using FTDNA family finder matches and gedmatch, I've identified several other matches that share this same segment of chr 8.

    Using this info, I searched gedmatch gedcom files, FTDNA, and ancestry.com to see how many of the chr 8 matches have family trees. I then take their trees and expand them as far back as I can, primarily using ancestry.com's database and sometimes google.

    At first I didn't have much success, so I expanded my search to include a neighboring chr 8 segment that some of the above matches shared my with father's matches and other men. When I did this, I found 4 men in a neighboring chr 8 segment who's ancestors went back to the same husband and wife in the late 1600s. I then found a 5th match that overlaped both the segment of interest and the neighboring segment that went back to the parents of the husband above. This technique isn't for the faint of heart as it's some serious in the trenches, retina frying hours in front of the computer for a couple of weeks.

    I'm taking a break on it now, but the goal is to finally connect my father's two closest SNP and STR matches to each other. I'm thinking their shared y-dna ancestor lived in the 1500s. If I do succeed in this, then there's no guarantee I will be able to connect this ancestor to the one my father shares with these two men that lived in the ~1200s +/-200. But maybe I'll get lucky.

    I'm hoping, against the odds, that our shared ancestor was high enough up on the food chain to have had a surname longer than the typical male, for example a Norman line that came over circa 1066.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 01-13-2017 at 01:14 PM. Reason: readability
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
    Hidden Content

  18. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to MitchellSince1893 For This Useful Post:

     Angoliga (01-26-2017),  JMcB (01-13-2017),  Lugus (01-13-2017),  palamede (01-25-2017)

  19. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    296
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Portuguese
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b DF27
    mtDNA (M)
    H5a2
    Y-DNA (M)
    R-L21 Z251
    mtDNA (P)
    T1a1

    Portugal
    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    I have a similar situation. My father's closest STR match above 25 markers is a GD of 6 at 37 markers, GD=9 at 67 markers, and GD=10 at 111 markers. This same match is also my father's closest SNP match. According to Yfull our MRCA lived around 1000 years ago. Using the http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html tool it says there's a 50% chance our MRCA lived within the last 540 years, and 95% chance it was within the last 840 years.

    This match has a 37 marker match at GD=1 (GD=6 with my father), who is on our subclade FGC12384/FGC12385. Also these two matches share a chromosome (chr) 8 segment with each other (my father doesn't have any autosomal matches with either man)

    So we're in the gray area...just outside the genealogical timeframe yet still relatively recent.

    I've spent a lot of time of late attempting to figure out how these two men above are related. This effort has produced results. Using FTDNA family finder matches and gedmatch, I've identified several other matches that share this same segment of chr 8.

    Using this info, I searched gedmatch gedcom files, FTDNA family trees, and ancestry.com for family trees to see how many of the chr 8 matches have trees. I then take their trees and expand them as far back as I can, primarily using ancestry.com's database and sometimes google.

    At first I didn't have much success, so I expanded my search to include neighboring chr 8 segment that some of the above matches shared my father's matches and other men. When I did this, I found 4 men in a neighboring chr 8 segment who's ancestors went back to the same husband and wife in the late 1600s. I then found a 5th match that overlaped both the segment of interest and the neighboring segment that went back to the parents of the husband above. This technique isn't for the faint of heart as it's some serious in the trenches, retina frying hours in front of the computer for a couple of weeks.

    I'm taking a break on it now, but the goal is to finally connect my father's two closest SNP and STR matches to each other. I'm thinking their shared y-dna ancestor lived in the 1500s. If I do succeed in this, then there's no guarantee I will be able to connect this ancestor to the one my father shares with these two men that lived in the 1100s. But maybe I'll get lucky.




    I'm hoping on the off chance that maybe our shared ancestor was high enough up on the food chain to have had a surname longer than the typical male, for example a Norman line that came over circa 1066.
    Impressive work. I guess that's the way to do it. I've also noticed the surname of my GD 6 match popping up in Family Finder.

  20. The Following User Says Thank You to Lugus For This Useful Post:

     MitchellSince1893 (01-13-2017)

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. When would a 65 marker match have diverged?
    By Nqp15hhu in forum FTDNA
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 11-28-2019, 05:04 PM
  2. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 10-30-2019, 04:06 PM
  3. No match at 12-marker?
    By hannah-lena in forum FTDNA
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 03-11-2017, 07:51 PM
  4. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 12-01-2016, 09:43 PM
  5. Sorenson Y-database 15/28 marker match
    By migoblu in forum General
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 02-17-2014, 11:31 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •