GED Match and DNA land: Uttar Pradesh,Bihari and Bengali DNA?

[Raza94]

I've personally seen East punjabi shajrah's that do not have anything to do with a shrine. I saw it in some Hoshiarpuri Bukhari families. Same with the Khalifa family of Patiala Though the Khalifa family had origins as pirs which was quite common in East Punjab (for landowning sayyid families to be Pirs or Qazis or etc). Prehaps it depends on the Area or prehaps used by landowning or more influential families. Not sure on that.



I dont think thats true. For example the Talpur royal family members are addressed as Sahibzada Mir (name). And they are Balochis. Plus many of the old turani chiefs used Mir (name) beg and retained it while integrating into the mughal system, and in that region they continued to use it. Mir Murad Beg comes to mind of Uzbekistan, a enemy of Dost Muhammad Khan. Plus isn't the tv presenter Hamid Mir a sayyid ?

Mirza was also sometimes used by sayyids but now its completely out of vogue.

A lot depends on the time frame. I personally know an Iraqi Jilani, who's associated with the Qadari order. Who said to me that in the olden days Fatimids did not use the title Sayyid. Rather they would just use Hashimi. He knew from personal lore and also by looking at manuscripts. Also if you read manucci on India it seems that in the older days, sayyid wasn't used for sayyids. Rather they were called Shaikhzadas. I also personally know that azeris still use mirza and mir/amir a lot for sayyids.

edit: I mean to say they used to use the al hashimi surname after their name

My family is a pir family in Jhang but the Makhdum thing could be a Saraiki thing because I know many families in Multan area do use it.

[Raza94]

I've personally seen East punjabi shajrah's that do not have anything to do with a shrine. I saw it in some Hoshiarpuri Bukhari families. Same with the Khalifa family of Patiala Though the Khalifa family had origins as pirs which was quite common in East Punjab (for landowning sayyid families to be Pirs or Qazis or etc). Prehaps it depends on the Area or prehaps used by landowning or more influential families. Not sure on that.



I dont think thats true. For example the Talpur royal family members are addressed as Sahibzada Mir (name). And they are Balochis. Plus many of the old turani chiefs used Mir (name) beg and retained it while integrating into the mughal system, and in that region they continued to use it. Mir Murad Beg comes to mind of Uzbekistan, a enemy of Dost Muhammad Khan. Plus isn't the tv presenter Hamid Mir a sayyid ?

Mirza was also sometimes used by sayyids but now its completely out of vogue.

A lot depends on the time frame. I personally know an Iraqi Jilani, who's associated with the Qadari order. Who said to me that in the olden days Fatimids did not use the title Sayyid. Rather they would just use Hashimi. He knew from personal lore and also by looking at manuscripts. Also if you read manucci on India it seems that in the older days, sayyid wasn't used for sayyids. Rather they were called Shaikhzadas. I also personally know that azeris still use mirza and mir/amir a lot for sayyids.

edit: I mean to say they used to use the al hashimi surname after their name

Wasn't Mirza also used to denote that the mother was Sayyid but the father was not?

[Raza94]

Via Google, I found two people, who I assume are Hindus, using "Gilani" as last name.
One guy is named Ravi Gilani.
https://twitter.com/ravigilani?lang=en

Other is named Banjamin Gilani. It even says he is of "Iran origin", but I really doubt it.
https://nettv4u.com/celebrity/hindi/...enjamin-gilani
Benjamin Gilani is a veteran Indian actor, who has worked in India films, TV serials, and plays. Benjamin was born in Dhariwal town of Gurdaspur district in Punjab on 20 November 1946. He has mastered theatre before getting into Indian cinema. Benjamin is of Iran origin as his name suggests (Gilani). His ancestors had migrated from Gilan (Iran) to Kashmir. Benjamin's grandfather and his brother later settled in Jagraon near Ludhiana.

I think both are probably Kashmiri Pandits using Gilani similar to how some use Bamzai which I posted before.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post649066

Thats interesting, I'm sure there are a lot of people who may have done that. Also interesting because on the PCA that Vishankar made for me it seemed like I was closest to Kashmiri Pandit or Butt I forget which one. Not sure how legit that is though.

[royaljoker]

My family is a pir family in Jhang but the Makhdum thing could be a Saraiki thing because I know many families in Multan area do use it.

Yeah I think the use of Makhdum started in Multan, just a guess. But mind you these bukhari families that I had a look at had their ultimate origin in Multan so perhaps they carried the title with them into East Punjab, where it became dissociated with shrine ownership. So maybe you're right about the shrine thing.

Wasn't Mirza also used to denote that the mother was Sayyid but the father was not?

Yes it was. Also sometimes used to indicate Hussaini descent. It was used by members of the original Sabzwari royal family and then later replaced with just sayyid. Its more associated with Iranian culture. I think Turanis are to blame for the overall fall in use of both Mir and Mirza by sayyids. For example Mirza Ghulam Ahmad uses the title mirza based on his alleged Turani (although many aren't sure where is family is from) origins, but he is neither a sayyid nor a royal prince. I always found it interesting that the Mughals tolerated that and didn't create something exclusive for their own dynasty. Like in the mughal court of Bahadur Shah II you had Mirza ilahi Bakhs and Mirza Ghalib. The former is royal and the latter is noble but you couldn't tell that on paper without prior knowledge.

Reading White Mughals I noticed that recent sayyid migrants from Persia post-Ahmad Shah's time, continued using Mir and retained it with them for some time.

[deuterium_1]

Yeah I think the use of Makhdum started in Multan, just a guess. But mind you these bukhari families that I had a look at had their ultimate origin in Multan so perhaps they carried the title with them into East Punjab, where it became dissociated with shrine ownership. So maybe you're right about the shrine thing.





Yes it was. Also sometimes used to indicate Hussaini descent. It was used by members of the original Sabzwari royal family and then later replaced with just sayyid. Its more associated with Iranian culture. I think Turanis are to blame for the overall fall in use of both Mir and Mirza by sayyids. For example Mirza Ghulam Ahmad uses the title mirza based on his alleged Turani (although many aren't sure where is family is from) origins, but he is neither a sayyid nor a royal prince. I always found it interesting that the Mughals tolerated that and didn't create something exclusive for their own dynasty. Like in the mughal court of Bahadur Shah II you had Mirza ilahi Bakhs and Mirza Ghalib. The former is royal and the latter is noble but you couldn't tell that on paper without prior knowledge.

Reading White Mughals I noticed that recent sayyid migrants from Persia post-Ahmad Shah's time, continued using Mir and retained it with them for some time.

Didn't Mirza Ghulam Ahmed claim descent from Mirza Hadi Beg and Hajji Beg?

[Ahmed Ali]

My family is a pir family in Jhang but the Makhdum thing could be a Saraiki thing because I know many families in Multan area do use it.

Interesting. My family use Makhdum too; in fact it's my Dad's first name on paper and my grandad and his brothers are addressed by it colloquially.

We're not Syeds, but we are from a Chishti shrine family with links to South Punjab. I spoke with my grandad and it turns out that the sufi saints in our lineage spent many years studying at seminaries in the Seraiki belt, in particular Taunsa Sharif and the former Riyasat-e-Bahawalpur, before moving up to Lahore. He tells me our family are linked closely to the Korejas (of Khawaja Ghulam Farid fame), who also use Makhdum although they claim to be Farooqi Qureshis; as well as the Bukharis of Uch Sharif, who are Makhdums too (interestingly, my grandad also told me that by the 18th century the Uch Sharif Bukharis/Naqvis had become either Ithna Ashari Shi'is or shifted from Suhrwardi to Chishti Sufism).

The sense I'm getting is that Makhdum is, as you say, a Gaddi Nashin title in Seraiki areas. Most are Syeds (typically Gilani/Qureshi/Bukharis/Gardezis given the propenderance of these groups in that area, especially Multan) but a minority may just be the descendants of non-Syed saints..

[royaljoker]

Didn't Mirza Ghulam Ahmed claim descent from Mirza Hadi Beg and Hajji Beg?

Yeah he's meant to be a Barlas which is meant to be a Turani tribe. But some people contend the origins of the Barlas. Thats what I mean when I said some aren't sure where his family are from

[heksindhi]

I dont think thats true. For example the Talpur royal family members are addressed as Sahibzada Mir (name). And they are Balochis.

In Sindh and Balochistan, the prefix title Mir is essentially the equivalent of "prince" or "noble". It is used almost exclusively by the progeny of Sardars/Tumandars/Jams or other types of tribal chiefs, much the same way that the suffix title "Khan" is used by families of the tribal chiefs. In both cases, the tribe and/or clan name is included. Colloquial usage of "Khan" is much more common than the usage as a title, and has a very different connotation. Its used simply as a form of respect, similar to "Mister" in English. It differs from "Saeen" in that "Saeen"is closer to "Lord" or "Sir"

[subzero85]

A contact in Bihar has told me that Bihari Sheikhs are a mix of Turkic men marrying Kayasath caste woman and or just Kayasth converting and being titled as Sheikh. In terms of genetics there is not much data to confirm this as far as I know. But as per my genetic results my genetics show I have Bihari Brahmin ancestry with some Kayasth. In terms of family lineage I know we have had Sheikhs marrying into the family so I'm leaning towards Sheikhs being Kayasth converts.

So as per Gedmatch and family lore I have so far concluded Bihari Syed's are primarily Brahmin converts, specifically Bhumihar and Sheikh's are Kayasth converts and where both have a bit of foreign blood mixed in.

As for Bihari Pathan's, my guess is they are Rajputs with actual Pathan ancestry mixed in. Again this is just a guess based on their martial statuses.

https://www.reddit.com/r/23andme/com...hajir_results/

Bihari Syed result.

His haplogroups are J-L88.2 (seems close to mine) and his mtDNA is M3a1 (which seems to be the same as you).

Admix Results (sorted):

#PopulationPercent

S-Indian 41.33
Baloch 35.45
NE-Euro 9.2
Caucasian 7.84
SE-Asian 3.51
Papuan 1.18
American 1.12
NE-Asian 0.35
Beringian 0.02

[Raza94]

Interesting. My family use Makhdum too; in fact it's my Dad's first name on paper and my grandad and his brothers are addressed by it colloquially.

We're not Syeds, but we are from a Chishti shrine family with links to South Punjab. I spoke with my grandad and it turns out that the sufi saints in our lineage spent many years studying at seminaries in the Seraiki belt, in particular Taunsa Sharif and the former Riyasat-e-Bahawalpur, before moving up to Lahore. He tells me our family are linked closely to the Korejas (of Khawaja Ghulam Farid fame), who also use Makhdum although they claim to be Farooqi Qureshis; as well as the Bukharis of Uch Sharif, who are Makhdums too (interestingly, my grandad also told me that by the 18th century the Uch Sharif Bukharis/Naqvis had become either Ithna Ashari Shi'is or shifted from Suhrwardi to Chishti Sufism).

The sense I'm getting is that Makhdum is, as you say, a Gaddi Nashin title in Seraiki areas. Most are Syeds (typically Gilani/Qureshi/Bukharis/Gardezis given the propenderance of these groups in that area, especially Multan) but a minority may just be the descendants of non-Syed saints..

Yea I'm not sure when my family also became 12er Shias. Pretty sure most Gilanis were Sufi but I am guessing it is somewhere around the 18th century we became Shia. I really do wonder what caused that shift.

We don't use Makhdum though, we just use Syed as out name/title