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Thread: GED Match and DNA land: Uttar Pradesh,Bihari and Bengali DNA?

  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterium_1 View Post
    Thanks

    I hope to hear from my cousin soon, it will be interesting to see if his Y Chromosome haplogroup is similar to other Mughals as shown in that table.

    Is C-M216 "Chaghatai-Borjigin" and is C-M217 "Barlas"?.

    The Borjigins and Barlas were quite distinct up to the point that Timur married a descendant of the Borjigins to give himself the title of Kuregen/Gurkhan. This is why in Persian, the Mughals are known as گورکانیان‎, (Gurkanian). I know people who studied the Timurids and even done their PhD theses on their manuscripts, so it would be interesting for me to see if this link is true. For example a good friend of mine from Karaj in Iran did her PhD on a manuscript of the 15th Century Timurid ruler, Baysunghur.
    The Borijigin line is (most) likely to be C-M217 or C-M216 though more research is to be done. A 2016 study found R1b in certain burials in the Mongol homeland, presumably of the Borijigin clan, but the study is seen as controversial as it is more speculative. Personally, I would think these graves are probably of allied Mongol tribes, rather than Genghisid.

    The Barlas clan is more likely to be a confederation rather than a single tribe, probably based around the leader Qarachar Barlas, a general in the Chagatai Khanate who Timur claimed direct descent from. Qarachar Barlas shared a male line ancestor, Bondonchar Munkhag with the Borijigin clan, so it is likely that the Timurid line and the Borijigin line share the same Y-dna. Qarachar did indeed marry the daughter of Chagatai Khan, leading Timur to declare himself as Gurkani/Gorgani, literally meaning 'son in law', although Timur could not claim to be the emperor as he was not of the Borijigin line, and used puppet Borijigin rulers to claim legitimacy with himself acting as 'Amir'.

    It is also possible that descendants of the non-Timurid members of the Barlas began to claim descent from Timur as a source of prestige. The Barlas, and the Mughals themselves also included non-Mongol Turks and Iranian nobles from Turan/Iran that brought in non-Mongol clades to Southern Asia. Also, the 'House of Jochi' of the Borijigin (rulers of the Golden Horde) may not be a descendant of Genghis Khan, as the paternity of Jochi is not certain since Börte, his mother was captured by a rival tribe and he may have had a different father. The Jochid descendants also played a very crucial role in Central Asia, for e.g. with the Shaybanids (descendant of Shiban, 5th son of Jochi) being the cause that the Timurids were driven out of Samarqand/Herat in the first place. Some Jochid clans may have thus migrated to South Asia as well.
    Last edited by Kulin; 05-28-2019 at 04:53 PM.

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  3. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I have not used Living DNA.

    We have a Barulas on the forum confirmed R1b-M73 CTS1211+

    See also:
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...C6L-EZw#sec026

    "Members of the Mongol imperial family (designated the Golden family) are buried in a secret necropolis; therefore, none of their burial grounds have been found. In 2004, we first discovered 5 graves belonging to the Golden family in Tavan Tolgoi, Eastern Mongolia....Y-SNP and Y-STR profiles indicate that the males examined belonged to the R1b-M343 haplogroup....




    Mongol warrior MN0376 appears to be L657 from his STRs
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...e.0161622.t003
    "the Mongolian warrior MN0376 was positive for R-M207 and negative for O-M175, C-RPS4Y, N-M231, D-M174, J-M304, and Q-M242. MN0376 was affiliated with R1a1a-M17 ... 7 individuals who matched MN0376 in 13 of 16 marker loci were identified in the literature [34–38], including 1 Russian, 1 Hui (Chinese), 1 Croatian, and 4 Pashtun."
    I would like to test my cousin's Y Chromosome so I would greatly appreciate any thoughts on a good DNA testing service to use

    I thought that R1b is a Bronze Age Western Eurasian lineage? Could it have come from the Afansievo culture?.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin View Post
    The Borijigin line is (most) likely to be C-M217 or C-M216 though more research is to be done. A 2016 study found R1b in certain burials in the Mongol homeland, presumably of the Borijigin clan, but the study is seen as controversial as it is more speculative. Personally, I would think these graves are probably of allied Mongol tribes, rather than Genghisid.

    The Barlas clan is more likely to be a confederation rather than a single tribe, probably based around the leader Qarachar Barlas, a general in the Chagatai Khanate who Timur claimed direct descent from. Qarachar Barlas shared a male line ancestor, Bondonchar Munkhag with the Borijigin clan, so it is likely that the Timurid line and the Borijigin line share the same Y-dna. Qarachar did indeed marry the daughter of Chagatai Khan, leading Timur to declare himself as Gurkani/Gorgani, literally meaning 'son in law', although Timur could not claim to be the emperor as he was not of the Borijigin line, and used puppet Borijigin rulers to claim legitimacy with himself acting as 'Amir'.

    It is also possible that descendants of the non-Timurid members of the Barlas began to claim descent from Timur as a source of prestige. The Barlas, and the Mughals themselves also included non-Mongol Turks and Iranian nobles from Turan/Iran that brought in non-Mongol clades to Southern Asia. Also, the 'House of Jochi' of the Borijigin (rulers of the Golden Horde) may not be a descendant of Genghis Khan, as the paternity of Jochi is not certain since Börte, his mother was captured by a rival tribe and he may have had a different father. The Jochid descendants also played a very crucial role in Central Asia, for e.g. with the Shaybanids (descendant of Shiban, 5th son of Jochi) being the cause that the Timurids were driven out of Samarqand/Herat in the first place. Some Jochid clans may have thus migrated to South Asia as well.
    Timur also married a daughter of a Chaghatayid ruler at the time, by his lifetime the Chaghatai Khanate had split into two parts with the western portion comprising Transoxania and the eastern portion being centred on what is now Xinjiang which was then largely part of Moghulistan.

    Babur's maternal grandfather was Yunus Khan of Tashkent, a highly Persianised Mongol who spent some time in Yazd and later became the ruler of Moghulistan. One of his wives was the daughter of the King of Badakhshan who claimed descent from Alexander the Great.
    Last edited by deuterium_1; 05-29-2019 at 12:08 PM.

  4. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterium_1 View Post
    I would like to test my cousin's Y Chromosome so I would greatly appreciate any thoughts on a good DNA testing service to use

    I thought that R1b is a Bronze Age Western Eurasian lineage? Could it have come from the Afansievo culture?.
    ...
    For Y: Start with something that has a good sale to get the basic haplogroup and then use YSeq. https://www.yseq.net/

    The R1b type in the Barulas in South Asia and in the Mongols is M73 while Afanasevo I think was all Yamna like Z2103.

    pre-R1b-M73 was found in Mesolithic Latvia
    Latvia_HG2 Narva 5841–5636 pre-R1b1a1a1-M73
    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017...a-and-ukraine/

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  6. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterium_1 View Post
    I would like to test my cousin's Y Chromosome so I would greatly appreciate any thoughts on a good DNA testing service to use
    I would go with a cheap STR test (either Y12 from FTDNA [You need to order it through a project] or YSEQ Alpha - I recommend YSEQ personally) followed by a SNP Panel from YSEQ (if you get the STR test from FTDNA, you can also get a SNP pack from them but it is more expensive).
    FTDNA: IN41220
    YFull: YF62636

    Maternal mtDNA novels: G6150A > C15433T > G207A, T2404C, C8898T, G9755A

    Other ancestral Y-DNA lines: Mothers Mothers Mothers Father: R1a-M417 (most likely R1a-Z93 > Y7)

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    Hi all

    My cousin has ordered a DNA kit from MyHeritage (which I have had a good experience with)

    Her father is my grandmother's nephew while her mother's parents were from outside our family

    Her mother's maternal's family are said to belong to a Syed lineage from Karnal in Haryana. They claim to be Gardezi Syeds who I have mentioned before in this thread.

    Her mother's paternal lineage is supposedly descended from the Mughals.

    I have asked if there are any male siblings on her maternal line or her maternal grandfather's line to see if these claims are true.
    Last edited by deuterium_1; 07-11-2019 at 11:28 AM.

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    Some goods news, there are male siblings it seems.

    My guess is that Haplogroup C may lend some credence to claims of Mughal descent?.

    Also does anyone know more about Haplogroups among supposed Syeds?. Gardez is in modern day eastern Afghanistan and which makes it likely that its inhabitants would be on the South Asian cline because of its proximity to Pakistan today?.
    Last edited by deuterium_1; 07-11-2019 at 01:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterium_1 View Post
    Some goods news, there are male siblings it seems.

    My guess is that Haplogroup C may lend some credence to claims of Mughal descent?.

    Also does anyone know more about Haplogroups among supposed Syeds?. Gardez is in modern day eastern Afghanistan and which makes it likely that its inhabitants would be on the South Asian cline because of its proximity to Pakistan today?.
    Real Syeds would hardly exist in India and Pakistan. Majority of claims are untrue. Take a look here-



    From this study-
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ilineal_origin

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  14. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterium_1 View Post
    Some goods news, there are male siblings it seems.

    My guess is that Haplogroup C may lend some credence to claims of Mughal descent?.

    Also does anyone know more about Haplogroups among supposed Syeds?. Gardez is in modern day eastern Afghanistan and which makes it likely that its inhabitants would be on the South Asian cline because of its proximity to Pakistan today?.
    I've come across one guy from Delhi originally with mughal claims, who was C2, surname Beg. There's also a Bengali Muslim kit with C-M217 (C2).

    If their haplogroup were to be C-M217, then mongol ancestry would be likely. Realistically though, mughals brought all sorts of non mongol groups with them including Turks, Iranians, Khorasanis etc with them. I'm not sure how you would confirm the claims if it turned out to be J2, R1b or even R1a L657 without more granularity. Only a clearly local y dna haplogroup would make it very unlikely.

    The same applies I guess to any ancestry from Gardez, where pashtuns are at least 50pc R1a1a. Unlikely to prove or disprove, unless its definitely local to the subcontinent.

    (Sunni) Syeds from the subcontinent invariably have a similar pattern of haplogroup to the rest of the subcontinent. I've seen R1a, J2 as well as H anecdotally.

    Arguably, not Arab lineages. That doesn't discount ancestry from the Gardez region, nor sharing a common progenitor with other syeds back to a certain point in the past. Its just that person will unlikely to be a descendant of Ali. More often than not, that common progenitor is probably local though I was reading about Bukhari Syeds recently and their history of migration. Even if the lineage back to Jalaluddin Surkh Posh Bukhari were accurate (questionable), it would be even more untenable to prove descent to Ali Al Hadi.

    I actually think that the autosomal data may be more interesting if there truly has been endogamy of sorts between Syeds of certain regions. If its a single ancestor, will have diluted out within a few hundred years. As a community, there may be more subtle characteristics.
    Paternal; Y-DNA: R1a-L657> Y6> Y11> Y920*
    Paternal; mtDNA: M5b'c
    Maternal; Y-DNA: R1a-L657> Y6
    Maternal; mtDNA: M4b1

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    Quote Originally Posted by agent_lime View Post
    Real Syeds would hardly exist in India and Pakistan. Majority of claims are untrue. Take a look here-



    From this study-
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ilineal_origin
    An exception would be the Shia Syeds of the Deccan, it is well known to scholars that there was an influx of Iranians to the courts of the Deccans with some claiming Syed ancestry.

    Shia Syeds of Awadh are another good example of a genuine Iranian lineage, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini's grandfather hailed from such a lineage of Iranian expats (in a modern sense) in India.

    Quote Originally Posted by Reza View Post
    I've come across one guy from Delhi originally with mughal claims, who was C2, surname Beg. There's also a Bengali Muslim kit with C-M217 (C2).

    If their haplogroup were to be C-M217, then mongol ancestry would be likely. Realistically though, mughals brought all sorts of non mongol groups with them including Turks, Iranians, Khorasanis etc with them. I'm not sure how you would confirm the claims if it turned out to be J2, R1b or even R1a L657 without more granularity. Only a clearly local y dna haplogroup would make it very unlikely.

    The same applies I guess to any ancestry from Gardez, where pashtuns are at least 50pc R1a1a. Unlikely to prove or disprove, unless its definitely local to the subcontinent.

    (Sunni) Syeds from the subcontinent invariably have a similar pattern of haplogroup to the rest of the subcontinent. I've seen R1a, J2 as well as H anecdotally.

    Arguably, not Arab lineages. That doesn't discount ancestry from the Gardez region, nor sharing a common progenitor with other syeds back to a certain point in the past. Its just that person will unlikely to be a descendant of Ali. More often than not, that common progenitor is probably local though I was reading about Bukhari Syeds recently and their history of migration. Even if the lineage back to Jalaluddin Surkh Posh Bukhari were accurate (questionable), it would be even more untenable to prove descent to Ali Al Hadi.

    I actually think that the autosomal data may be more interesting if there truly has been endogamy of sorts between Syeds of certain regions. If its a single ancestor, will have diluted out within a few hundred years. As a community, there may be more subtle characteristics.
    I will have to wait and I see I guess about claims of Mughal descent

    Gardezis appear to be on the South Asian cline in that case? 50% R1a1a is pretty conclusive if accurate.

    Sunni Syeds claim descent from Shia Imams (One of the 11 Imams as the 12th Imam is in Occultation).

    Well having read up on the evolution of Sharia law in both Sunni and Shia contexts, many Bukhari (and other Sufi) lineages may just be a silsilah (a mystical golden chain transmitting knowledge) rather than an actual genealogical chain of descent as is conventionally known. Another possibility is that families adopted their surnames from whoever converted them as a sign of respect.
    Last edited by deuterium_1; 07-11-2019 at 02:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reza View Post

    Arguably, not Arab lineages. That doesn't discount ancestry from the Gardez region, nor sharing a common progenitor with other syeds back to a certain point in the past. Its just that person will unlikely to be a descendant of Ali. More often than not, that common progenitor is probably local though I was reading about Bukhari Syeds recently and their history of migration. Even if the lineage back to Jalaluddin Surkh Posh Bukhari were accurate (questionable), it would be even more untenable to prove descent to Ali Al Hadi.

    I actually think that the autosomal data may be more interesting if there truly has been endogamy of sorts between Syeds of certain regions. If its a single ancestor, will have diluted out within a few hundred years. As a community, there may be more subtle characteristics.
    You are correct. From the same study I just posted.

    This study shows that the Y chromosomes of a sample of
    self-identified Syed men exhibit the same level of genetic
    diversity as their non-IHL neighbours from the Indian
    subcontinent. However, self-identified men belonging to
    the IHL (Syeds, Hashemites, Quraysh and Ansari) show a
    greater genetic affinity to Arab populations—despite the
    geographic distance—than do their neighbouring populations from India and Pakistan

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