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Thread: GED Match and DNA land: Uttar Pradesh,Bihari and Bengali DNA?

  1. #381
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    Hi all

    I have been using this calculator today:

    http://www.y-str.org/2014/12/ancient-calculator.html

    Apparently I am just 0.02% Denisovan

    My maternal grandfather is 0.09% Denisovan

    My mum's brother is 0.03% Denisovan

    My maternal grandmother is 0.21% Denisovan (which is on the higher side)

    I would have thought that because of my father's Tibeto-Burmese phylogenetic lineage (according to Razib Khan) I would be more Denisovan?

    Is there any explanation for this?.

  2. #382
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    I have finally found my English 4th cousin, a living descendant of my great great granduncle Syed Mohammad Sami who was the brother of my direct maternal ancestor Syeda Hamidun Nisa.I have recently discovered that Syed Mohammad Sami's son Alfred William Sami served in WW2 with the Royal Welsh Fusiliers and then the Royal Field Artillery. I would be interested to see if he had any male issue who are still surviving today.

    I have read that the amount of DNA that we would share would be quite low at this stage?. Our families have been separated for a century.
    Last edited by deuterium_1; 02-15-2020 at 08:01 AM.

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  4. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterium_1 View Post
    I have finally found my English 4th cousin, a living descendant of my great great granduncle Syed Mohammad Sami who was the brother of my direct maternal ancestor Syeda Hamidun Nisa.I have recently discovered that Syed Mohammad Sami's son Alfred William Sami served in WW2 with the Royal Welsh Fusiliers and then the Royal Field Artillery. I would be interested to see if he had any male issue who are still surviving today.

    I have read that the amount of DNA that we would share would be quite low at this stage?. Our families have been separated for a century.
    There is one person with that name on Ancestry.

  5. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    There is one person with that name on Ancestry.
    Yes that was my initial starting point back in 2012. Since then a lot of records have been added there.

    Find My Past is also really good, I was able to even find the service number of Alfred William Sami. I will request his service records from the Ministry of Defence here in London, I have a Civil Servant friend who used to work with them some years ago.

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  7. #385
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    It turns out that Syed Mohammad Sami's full name was Syed Mohammad Sami Ahmad, his father was Syed Fasih-us-Zaman who was an Honorary Magistrate which was awarded to somone of good social standing and education at that time, according to my Nana. Generally they had a reasonable knowledge of English in those days apparently:

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/44139417

    He came from a village called Chhihi, in Pargana Sagri, which is north-east of Azamgarh.

    Chhihi Population - Azamgarh, Uttar Pradesh
    Chhihi is a large village located in Sagri Tehsil of Azamgarh district, Uttar Pradesh with total 359 families residing. The Chhihi village has population of 2673 of which 1305 are males while 1368 are females as per Population Census 2011.

    In Chhihi village population of children with age 0-6 is 500 which makes up 18.71 % of total population of village. Average Sex Ratio of Chhihi village is 1048 which is higher than Uttar Pradesh state average of 912. Child Sex Ratio for the Chhihi as per census is 969, higher than Uttar Pradesh average of 902.

    Chhihi village has higher literacy rate compared to Uttar Pradesh. In 2011, literacy rate of Chhihi village was 74.05 % compared to 67.68 % of Uttar Pradesh. In Chhihi Male literacy stands at 82.21 % while female literacy rate was 66.40 %.

    As per constitution of India and Panchyati Raaj Act, Chhihi village is administrated by Sarpanch (Head of Village) who is elected representative of village. Our website, don't have information about schools and hospital in Chhihi village.
    https://www.census2011.co.in/data/vi...r-pradesh.html


    It is close to a place called Azmatgarh. It was founded by the brother of the founder of Azamgarh, who was Azmat. This is what the British District gazzetteer had to say about Azamgarh district in 1911:

    According to the traditions current among the present inhabitants the former occupants of the district were Khars or Rajbhars, Soeris and Cherus.
    https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet....arh-A_djvu.txt

    Census data from roughly the same time:

    The most numerous Hindu castes are:

    Chamars (leather-workersand labourers), 257,000;
    Ahirs (graziers and cultivators), 219,000;
    Brahmans, 8,000;
    Rajputs or Chhattris, 99,000;
    Bhars (labourers),70,000);
    Koiris (cultivators), 60,000;
    Bhuinhars (agriculturists), 56,000;
    Lunias (saltpetre workers and labourers), 52,000;
    Banias, 38,000.

    More than half of the Musalmans are included in the two divisions of Julahas (weavers) and Shaikhs, 54,000 each; while Pathans number 27,000.
    https://dsal.uchicago.edu/reference/...34_V06_163.gif

    Syeds were a minority apparently and Chhihi was in Pargana Sagri.There were Syed families living in Jiyanpur, Khatibpur and Patar which were all in Pargana Sagri. Patar is just 5 kilometres away from Chhihi so it is reasonable to assume that they could have had some connection with the Syeds of Chhihi. Interestingly they were Shias and owed allegiance to the Nawab of Awadh during the 18th Century and held land "revenue-free".Even them being Shia is quite surprising to me, considering that I am a Sunni. One family member did mention that we used to intermarry with Shias in the past.

    It seems that the Hussaini Syeds were predominant:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Husseini

    I am not sure if this section appears to imply some relationship to a certain Ali Ashikhan/Ashkan? which means "Champion" or "Paladin" in Persian and Sarai Mir (dwelling/house/mansion/inn of Mir?) has the title "Mir" which was an honorific title given to Syeds in South Asia, Iran and Central Asia during the Timurid and Safavid era:


    Saiyids come next with 7,605 representatives, the majority being in tahsils Azamgarh, Sagri and Muhammadabad. The Saiyids of the district hold as landlords more land than any other Musalman



    The People.


    95


    There are some well known Saiyid settlements in the district. The bulk of those whose sub-caste was specified at the census were Hussainis. The Saiyids of Deogaon are the descendants of one Muhammad Baghdadi, and have long been settled in the village, of which, according to the words of an old sanad they were the zamindars and muqaddams. All of them are Shias by sect, having, like other families in their part of the province, abandoned the Sunni doctrines in the time of Nawab Asaf-ud-daula. Those of Sarai Mir in pargana Nizamabad are descended from the saint Ali Ashikan who died in 1548 A.D. ; and there are other families at Patar, Jianpur and Khatibpur in pargana Sagri and at Baragaon in pargana Ghosi. The Saiyids of Muhaminadabad belong to the family of Saiyid Hamid-ud-din and have been settled at Miiliammadabad for many generations.

    These Saiyids are Shias by sect, and they appear to have been in favour at the court of Oudh ; for many of them held land revenue-free at the time of the cession and for a period after it. The best known Saiyid family, however, in the district is that of Mahul, though it has no connection now in Mahul Khas, the present representatives being residents of Powai, Chanianwan and Amari in Mahul pargana. The ancestor of the family was one Saiyid Ahsan, called Akhund Mir, who is said to have lived in the time of the emperor Akbar and to have come in some official capacity to the part of the country where his family was eventually established. The current tradition is that he was appointed to keep Rajbliars in order in the district east of Surhurpur, and that he took up his residence at Saidpur, a village on the west of pargana Mahul. Nothing is known of the history of the earlier generations that followed Akhund Mir ; but Saltan Jahan, sixth in descent from him, had three sons from whom were descended the Saiyids of Powai, of Mahul Khas, and of Chanianwan and Amari, respectively.

    In 1731 A. D. by an imperial decree issued by Kamar-ud-din Khan under the advice of Saadat Khan, certain confiscated villages in Sumbhadih, Kharaunda and Bhopaura of pargana Surhurpur, which had belonged to a rebel named Mir Muhammad Malik, were conferred upon Khan Jahau and Mukarram Jahan, grandsons of Aman Jahan ; and in 1736 AD, Khan Jahan obtained a contract for the revenue of Sumbhadih and Kliaraunda. The modern tappa of Powai was formed mostly out of Sumbhadih and Kharaunda; audit was apparently after the Saiyids had obtained the revenue contract that they settled at Powai, where they threw up the large mud fort, the ruins of which still exist. The rise of the Maliul branch was similar and its position was strengthened by marriage alliances with the Rajas of Azamgarh.


    Saadat Khan visited Azamgarh in 1730-31 AD.
    My uncle (whose DNA results has been posted here) is from Muslimpatti, Pargana Nizamabad which is west of Azamgarh.

    The remaining Musalman castes which occur in number exceeding one thousand are:

    Darzis, 4,922 ;
    Qassabs or butchers, 2,840 ;
    Telis, 2,127 ;
    Bhangis, 1,998 ;
    Dhobis, 1,900 ;
    Mughals, 1,676 ;
    Bhats, 1,530 ;
    Kuneras, 1,492 ;
    Dafalis, 1,227 ;
    Kunjfas, 1,200 ;
    Nats, 1,018.

    Among the Mughals are perhaps included some Zamindaras, those of this caste who claim descent from an ancestor converted by a Mughal occasionally so describing themselves.
    https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet....tteer_djvu.txt

    This is really detailed, I must say. It appears that the Syeds and Mughals were smaller in numbers.

    It is interesting to read all this considering that the British had no access to DNA extraction and analysis as we do now.

    Razib Khan's thoughts on the topic:

    https://www.brownpundits.com/2019/03...s-and-magians/
    Last edited by deuterium_1; 02-25-2020 at 11:21 PM.

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  9. #386
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    Found this video from a place just adjacent to Chhihi called Chhihin Sharif (they might be part of the same village):



    What is interesting is that the speaker is wearing the black turban of a Syed.

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  11. #387
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    I have also found records of my maternal grandmother's father's nana, he was a Syed from Siwan in Bihar and his name was Syed Mohammad Qasim. I found this reference in the district gazzetteer for Saran written a century ago:

    There are only 6,000 Saiyids, probably the
    descendants of foreign immigrants
    https://archive.org/details/in.ernet...e/n55/mode/2up

    Perhaps Parasar would know more?.

    Do Bihari Syeds cluster with their non-Muslim neighbours genetically?.
    Last edited by deuterium_1; 04-24-2020 at 11:36 PM.

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  13. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterium_1 View Post
    I have also found records of my maternal grandmother's father's nana, he was a Syed from Siwan in Bihar and his name was Syed Mohammad Qasim. I found this reference in the district gazzetteer for Saran written a century ago:



    https://archive.org/details/in.ernet...e/n55/mode/2up

    Perhaps Parasar would know more?.

    Do Bihari Syeds cluster with their non-Muslim neighbours genetically?.
    deuterium_1,
    Just saw your message.

    The Syeds I that I know from the area are mainly Shia and for the most part have a sense of sophistication absent in the Pathans, Sunni Syeds, and Shaiks.
    I realize that this is only a matter of opinion, but the word tehzeeb comes to mind for Shia/Syed and Mughal families. IMO, some Persian connection is there for both.

    As far as Sunni Syeds go, these are more like their Rajput and Babhan counterparts.

    It is also known that some families got Syed status not by descent, but by claim and service.

    The Barha Syeds come to mind. This is one of most reputed of Syed families.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_brothers

    "The ancestor of Bārha Sayyids, Sayyid Abu'l Farah Al Hussaini Al Wasti, left his original home in Wasit, Iraq, with his twelve sons at the end of the 10th century or the beginning of the 11th century CE and migrated to India, where he obtained four estates in Punjab. Over time, Abu'l Farah's descendants took over Bārha riyasat (township) in Muzzafarnagar."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadaat-e-Bara

    But there were rumors in the Mughal period that their claim though accepted, was perhaps not justified.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=PqEIAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA390

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  15. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    deuterium_1,
    Just saw your message.

    The Syeds I that I know from the area are mainly Shia and for the most part have a sense of sophistication absent in the Pathans, Sunni Syeds, and Shaiks.
    I realize that this is only a matter of opinion, but the word tehzeeb comes to mind for Shia/Syed and Mughal families. IMO, some Persian connection is there for both.

    As far as Sunni Syeds go, these are more like their Rajput and Babhan counterparts.

    It is also known that some families got Syed status not by descent, but by claim and service.

    The Barha Syeds come to mind. This is one of most reputed of Syed families.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sayyid_brothers

    "The ancestor of Bārha Sayyids, Sayyid Abu'l Farah Al Hussaini Al Wasti, left his original home in Wasit, Iraq, with his twelve sons at the end of the 10th century or the beginning of the 11th century CE and migrated to India, where he obtained four estates in Punjab. Over time, Abu'l Farah's descendants took over Bārha riyasat (township) in Muzzafarnagar."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadaat-e-Bara

    But there were rumors in the Mughal period that their claim though accepted, was perhaps not justified.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=PqEIAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA390
    Thank you for seeing my message Parasar

    So he was likely descended from converts too?.

    The Syeds of Manikpur are mentioned in that book. My great grandmother's step mother was descended from them via a certain Mir Ekram Ali from Manikpur who married into a Bokhari Syed family of Koth, Pargana Sikanderpur East in Ballia in the 19th Century. I found a mention of the Gardezi Syeds of Koth in the British district Gazzetteer for Ballia.

    I have researched that side, I have found mention of the Syeds of Manikpur in a 16th Century book called the Akhbar al Akhyar written by Sheikh Abdul Haq Dehvi where he wrote about Raja Hamid Shah who belonged to the Gardezi Sadaat and lived in Manikpur in the 15th Century, his teacher according to the Chishti silsila was Sheikh Hisamuddin Manikpuri and this is stated in the book as is his link to Gardezi Sadaat via Syed Shahabuddin Gardezi.

    I am sceptical of such claims though.
    Last edited by deuterium_1; 05-22-2020 at 10:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterium_1 View Post
    Thank you for seeing my message Parasar

    So he was likely descended from converts too?.

    The Syeds of Manikpur are mentioned in that book. My great grandmother's step mother was descended from them via a certain Mir Ekram Ali from Manikpur who married into a Bokhari Syed family of Koth, Pargana Sikanderpur East in Ballia in the 19th Century. I found a mention of the Gardezi Syeds of Koth in the British district Gazzetteer for Ballia.

    I have researched that side, I have found mention of the Syeds of Manikpur in a 16th Century book called the Akhbar al Akhyar written by Sheikh Abdul Haq Dehvi where he wrote about Raja Hamid Shah who belonged to the Gardezi Sadaat and lived in Manikpur in the 15th Century, his teacher according to the Chishti silsila was Sheikh Hisamuddin Manikpuri and this is stated in the book as is his link to Gardezi Sadaat via Syed Shahabuddin Gardezi.

    I am sceptical of such claims though.
    Re: your query on converts - "Are the Syeds of Siwan predominantly converts from the Rajputs and Babhan?" - I am not familiar with any converts to Syeds. All my relatives, now distant, who converted, are Pathans. But the general theory given of conversion to Ashraf classes (Mughal, Pathan, Shaikh, Syed) was: Brahman or trading castes (Khatri, etc) - Syed, Kayath-Shaikh, and Babhan/Rajput - Pathan. As far as I know, coversion did not lead to one becoming a Mughal.

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