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Thread: GED Match and DNA land: Uttar Pradesh,Bihari and Bengali DNA?

  1. #491
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    Iirc the Xiongnu didn't really have much cranial deformation going on but the Yuezhi, Sarmatians, Tocharians and European huns did.

    I know there is some evidence for it amongst the Catacomb culture but not amongst the Andronovo related cultures as far as I know. Like Pegasus said it's probably an iron age thing which developed amongst certain Iranic populations on the steppes and their proximate Tocharian neighbours.

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  3. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Iirc the Xiongnu didn't really have much cranial deformation going on but the Yuezhi, Sarmatians, Tocharians and European huns did.

    I know there is some evidence for it amongst the Catacomb culture but not amongst the Andronovo related cultures as far as I know. Like Pegasus said it's probably an iron age thing which developed amongst certain Iranic populations on the steppes and their proximate Tocharian neighbours.
    This is like a hallmark of CA Eastern Iranic Nomads , my guess is increased interaction with Buddhists and other cultures further south , led to the abandonment of this practice because they don't depict themselves with deformed crania and headbands towards the end of the Classical period.

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  5. #493
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Iirc the Xiongnu didn't really have much cranial deformation going on but the Yuezhi, Sarmatians, Tocharians and European huns did.

    I know there is some evidence for it amongst the Catacomb culture but not amongst the Andronovo related cultures as far as I know. Like Pegasus said it's probably an iron age thing which developed amongst certain Iranic populations on the steppes and their proximate Tocharian neighbours.
    The Xiongnu did not practice it.
    That is why I think the paper I posted posited that the Hoons picked it in the Tajikistan area on their move west to Europe.
    To me, it looks more likely that the Europeans Hoons had little to do with the Xiongnu, but more to do with the Kushan-Hepthalite-Hoon of the South Asian borderlands called Kushan-Honk by the Armenians.

  6. #494
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    I have this bronze tetradrachma of Vima Kadphises and you can clearly see head binding.

    It is Ex David Sellwood collection


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  8. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    The Xiongnu did not practice it.
    That is why I think the paper I posted posited that the Hoons picked it in the Tajikistan area on their move west to Europe.
    To me, it looks more likely that the Europeans Hoons had little to do with the Xiongnu, but more to do with the Kushan-Hepthalite-Hoon of the South Asian borderlands called Kushan-Honk by the Armenians.
    The problem with the Xiongnu-Hun debate is that people take what is a political entity, the Xiongnu, and try to turn it into an ethnic entity.

    It is certainly possible that the European Huns were part of the Xiongnu confederation but I'm not sold on the link being as strong as many people think it is.

    Post-Xiongnu period seems to be the begin of steppe Iranic and Yeniseian assimilation and wider dispersals of Turkic groups.

    The European Huns, with many of their names resembling Oghuric Turkic were likely the result of that.

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  10. #496
    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    The problem with the Xiongnu-Hun debate is that people take what is a political entity, the Xiongnu, and try to turn it into an ethnic entity.

    It is certainly possible that the European Huns were part of the Xiongnu confederation but I'm not sold on the link being as strong as many people think it is.

    Post-Xiongnu period seems to be the begin of steppe Iranic and Yeniseian assimilation and wider dispersals of Turkic groups.

    The European Huns, with many of their names resembling Oghuric Turkic were likely the result of that.
    Would you point to such European Huns with Turkic names?

  11. #497
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    The problem with the Xiongnu-Hun debate is that people take what is a political entity, the Xiongnu, and try to turn it into an ethnic entity.

    It is certainly possible that the European Huns were part of the Xiongnu confederation but I'm not sold on the link being as strong as many people think it is.

    Post-Xiongnu period seems to be the begin of steppe Iranic and Yeniseian assimilation and wider dispersals of Turkic groups.

    The European Huns, with many of their names resembling Oghuric Turkic were likely the result of that.
    I think that the „European Huns" were part of the Xiongnu Confederation and through violent clashes between the tribes and civil wars, it triggered a kind of chain reaction (resources, lack of space, internal power struggles, ...) and thus migration to the west, of course the so-called European Huns not homogeneous but had a different lifestyle than, for example, the Iranian Huns and also have a slightly different background! And were a new image in Europe. But that is always a matter of opinion, but in the future we will know more.
    Alain Dad
    Y-DNA R1a-Y33 Eastern Corderd Ware Culture Baltoslavic/ old Pruzzen
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    Mari: 2%
    Moldovan: 0.2%
    Italian_Northeast: 0.2%
    Other: 0.1%

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  13. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    I think that the „European Huns" were part of the Xiongnu Confederation and through violent clashes between the tribes and civil wars, it triggered a kind of chain reaction (resources, lack of space, internal power struggles, ...) and thus migration to the west, of course the so-called European Huns not homogeneous but had a different lifestyle than, for example, the Iranian Huns and also have a slightly different background! And were a new image in Europe. But that is always a matter of opinion, but in the future we will know more.
    The Altai-Sayan region apparently was really turmoilous and violent during the period after the Xiongnu collapse. My best guess is that the entities which took over that region became significantly more powerful due to the wealth of the region, both due to resources (metal, pasture lands) and it's location in relation to trade on the steppes.

    My best guess is that the Turkic peoples were the ones the victoriously come out of the post-Xiongnu mess in that region, and the moment that region became Turkic speaking that would also imply that many of the nomads radiating out of that zone would be Turkic speaking. Perhaps the earliest waves were a bit more mixed ethninguistically, but with each consecutive wave it becomes more Turkic.

    And I think it's likely the European Huns were one of those groups radiating out of that region during or after that turmoilous period. I'd imagine the cranial deformation for them specifically comes from the Sarmatians, but I'm open to the idea that the traditions came from a more eastern source.

    Although I should stress that the Hun - Turkic link isn't a done deal. For all we know Turkic speakers were just a large part of the EuroHuns, but without them being the "Core/OG" Huns.

    I do think that the terms Huns and Xiongnu are related. But I could easily see the usage of Hun being similar to how Roman was used in Medieval Europe.

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  15. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    The Altai-Sayan region apparently was really turmoilous and violent during the period after the Xiongnu collapse. My best guess is that the entities which took over that region became significantly more powerful due to the wealth of the region, both due to resources (metal, pasture lands) and it's location in relation to trade on the steppes.

    My best guess is that the Turkic peoples were the ones the victoriously come out of the post-Xiongnu mess in that region, and the moment that region became Turkic speaking that would also imply that many of the nomads radiating out of that zone would be Turkic speaking. Perhaps the earliest waves were a bit more mixed ethninguistically, but with each consecutive wave it becomes more Turkic.

    And I think it's likely the European Huns were one of those groups radiating out of that region during or after that turmoilous period. I'd imagine the cranial deformation for them specifically comes from the Sarmatians, but I'm open to the idea that the traditions came from a more eastern source.

    Although I should stress that the Hun - Turkic link isn't a done deal. For all we know Turkic speakers were just a large part of the EuroHuns, but without them being the "Core/OG" Huns.

    I do think that the terms Huns and Xiongnu are related. But I could easily see the usage of Hun being similar to how Roman was used in Medieval Europe.
    From a genetic point of view, the European Huns can be seen as a mixture of the Altai / Sajan - Tungus-Altaic peoples and of course also a Turkic Mongolian element and, to a lesser extent Iranian, also from a technical point of view of haplogroups, most of the pale lines are of East Asian descent and in the smaller to medium range Dimensions for example Z93- Z2125. On the way to Europe, of course, other population groups would also be partially absorbed, but that's another story.
    Last edited by Alain; 12-12-2020 at 11:56 AM.
    Alain Dad
    Y-DNA R1a-Y33 Eastern Corderd Ware Culture Baltoslavic/ old Pruzzen
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    Eurogenes Global 25 Calculator/Modern

    My:
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    German: 21.9%
    Greek_Central_Macedonia: 20.0%
    Italian_Bergamo: 17.4%
    Russian_Voronez: 10.4%
    Mari: 2%
    Moldovan: 0.2%
    Italian_Northeast: 0.2%
    Other: 0.1%

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  17. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by DgidguBidgu View Post
    Would you point to such European Huns with Turkic names?
    https://books.google.com/books?id=CrUdgzSICxcC&pg=PA442
    "Huns in the East Roman army
    Turkish : Althias , Elmincur , Elmingeir , Zolbon"

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