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Thread: GED Match and DNA land: Uttar Pradesh,Bihari and Bengali DNA?

  1. #501
    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    https://books.google.com/books?id=CrUdgzSICxcC&pg=PA442
    "Huns in the East Roman army
    Turkish : Althias , Elmincur , Elmingeir , Zolbon"

    You gave me as an example exactly the work of the author who speculatively declares the ethnonym Hunoguri as Turkic on-ogur - ten oguri(Maenchen-Helfen).
    However, neither the Hun anthropological type nor the Hun glosses, material culture and way of life have anything in common with the Turks. The particle gur in Hunoguri is found in the languages of European peoples - gwr-man Kymr, cuire-men, Gael fighters ... and of course in the Thracian gloss αγουρος- ό ἔφηβος Θρᾶκες (Tomaschek, z.116). The meaning of the Thracian word αγουρος (aguros) is youth, fighter. Hunoguri means Hun warriors, noble warriors.
    Obviously, he has no idea of etymology and it is not clear what are his sources, who identified the bearers of all these names as Huns.
    In addition, the very names Huns and Scythians are again of Indo-European etymology, as is expected of tribes of purely European origin.
    I don't believe a word of what was written in the genetic research on the Scythians and Huns. These unknown names, I would not call scientists in any way, completely ignore all the official information known so far from old authors and from other fields such as linguistics and archeology in order to declare such nonsense about their origin.
    I hope you do not think that you will mislead me
    that the typical Scythian and Hun culture, artifacts and language have anything in common with the Turks just because of the mention of three names of dubious origin from a dubious or unknown source?
    Scholars such as W. Watson have even pointed out the connection between Chinese Neolithic pottery and that of Eastern Europe, during the second Shang dynasty, unusual funeral rites with horses and chariots were observed in China, showing that the Thracian-Scythian influence on the Chinese continued
    a lot of time.These cultures and artifacts, including Hun cauldrons, have clear parallels with European ones.


    Evidently you do not understand and do not make the connection, but this movement from Europe to Asia is directly related to the Indo-European question.
    and as we know, no one has yet dared to place the source in Asia.
    The Scythia minor is located right in the middle between the two locations given so far - Anatolia and the Black Sea steppes.
    Last edited by DgidguBidgu; 12-12-2020 at 08:34 PM.

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  3. #502
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    most prob. this paper has a Hun sample SU_259 (ACD) ~5th. c. Osijek Croatia (Pannonian basin)

    shares most drift with the Hezhen and Ulchi (both Tungusic) and strong inner/east asian profile overall
    the samples are however low coverage ~5k SNPs and might pos. be the case that the Huns, once crossed the Don, were a multiethnoi confederation rather than a single ethnos but nonetheless however as also seen with 'the Avar elite' the inner/east asian component will def. not be a footnote among the Huns aswell specially elites and pos. overall

    two post-Hun Germanic samples with a pos. connection to Hun rule (ACD/vassals) show an east asian admixture The Gepid VIM_2 from Serbia demonstrated a similar Central Asian-like genetic profile to the Medieval Bavarian AED_1108 with an even larger East Asian component and number of private haplotypes ... - Veeramah et al
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  5. #503
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    It would be interesting to see Hephthalite samples actually

  6. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterium_1 View Post
    It would be interesting to see Hephthalite samples actually
    Yes no doubt.
    I think they will be pretty much be the same as the Kushan samples we have - mostly R1a1 or R2 on the Y side - with perhaps a little more Toorki influence.
    http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad...phthalite.html
    420-427: Hephthalites raid the Sassanian Empire as far west as modern Tehran.
    427: Hephthalites suffer overwhelming defeat in Sassanian Persia.
    437: Chinese embassy to Tokharestan/Gandhara finds no sign of Hephthalites.
    454: Hephthalites revenge earlier loss to Sassanian Persians.
    456: Hephthalites send their first embassy to the Wei court.
    457: Firuz, former king of Sassanian, requests Hephthalite assistance.
    459: Firuz regains Sassanian throne with help of Hephthalite armies.
    464-475: Wars between the former allies resolved with Sassanian tribute in 475.
    465-470: Hephthalites conquer Gandhara, set up a Tegin (a viceroy).
    470-480: War between Tegin of Gandhara and Gupta Empire of India.
    473-479: Hephthalites conquer Sogdiana, driving the Kidarites westwards, next conquering Khotan and Kashgar.
    480-500: Gupta empire collapses. Tegin is overlord of North & Central India.
    484: Firuz initiates new war against the Hephthalites and fails miserably.
    486: Firuz' heir Kubad takes refuge with Hephthalites following a coup.
    488: Kubad regains the throne with Hephthalite assistance.
    493-508: Hephthalites extend power as far as Zungaria, then Turfan and Karashar.
    497: Kubad deposed and escapes to a second refuge with the Hephthalites.
    500: Hephthalites place Kubad on Sassanian throne a second time (dies 531).
    503-513: Kubad makes war on the Hephthalites. Peace in 513 lasts.
    522 : Apex of Hephthalite power. Chief of the Juan-juan flees to the Hephthalites for protection. Hephthalites dominate north and south of the Tien Shan range, at least to Khotan in the east probably more, and up to Khurasan in the west. A separate Hephthalite Empire controls much of India. Forty countries (including the Sassanians) are in tribute. Hephthalite centers are at Ghur, Balkh, Warwaliz (north of today's Kunduz near the source of the Oxus) and Hsi-mo-ta-lo. The entire empire probably comprises fifty to sixty thousand individuals.
    531: Chosroes succeeds his father Kubad in Persia.
    532: Revolts in India; Hephthalites lose most of East & Central India.
    532-542: Fleeing ruler conquers the Kashmir for a short reign.
    552: Turks overthrow Avars and begin petty conflicts with Hephthalites.
    c. 565 : Turks and Chosroes ally to capture and divide Hephthalite empire.
    c. 570 : Hephthalite rule overthrown in India.
    "the Ephthalites are thought to have originated at Hsi-mo-ta-lo (southwest of Badakhshan and near the Hindu Kush), which tantalizingly, stands for Himtala, "snow plain", which may be the Sanskritized form of Hephthal ... the practice of several husbands to one wife, or polyandry, was always the rule ... Tellingly, polyandry has never been associated with any Hun tribe, but is known of several Central Asian ones, including the Aryans in India, other Indo-Europeans and probably in prehistoric Iran ... "
    https://rick-heli.info/silkroad/eph.html

    On a historical note, Xuanzang does not call Mihirkul a Hephthalite.

    http://pro.geo.univie.ac.at/projects...elzer%29_0.jpg
    Inscription from the year one of the reign of Toramana on a statue of a boar in Eran (Malwa, 540 km south of New Delhi, Indian state Madhya Pradesh), After 484/85 CE. (© Gudrun Melzer)
    "In year one of the reign of the King of Kings Sri-Toramana, who rules the world with splendor and radiance."

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Yes no doubt.
    I think they will be pretty much be the same as the Kushan samples we have - mostly R1a1 or R2 on the Y side - with perhaps a little more Toorki influence.
    http://depts.washington.edu/silkroad...phthalite.html


    "the Ephthalites are thought to have originated at Hsi-mo-ta-lo (southwest of Badakhshan and near the Hindu Kush), which tantalizingly, stands for Himtala, "snow plain", which may be the Sanskritized form of Hephthal ... the practice of several husbands to one wife, or polyandry, was always the rule ... Tellingly, polyandry has never been associated with any Hun tribe, but is known of several Central Asian ones, including the Aryans in India, other Indo-Europeans and probably in prehistoric Iran ... "
    https://rick-heli.info/silkroad/eph.html

    On a historical note, Xuanzang does not call Mihirkul a Hephthalite.

    http://pro.geo.univie.ac.at/projects...elzer%29_0.jpg
    Inscription from the year one of the reign of Toramana on a statue of a boar in Eran (Malwa, 540 km south of New Delhi, Indian state Madhya Pradesh), After 484/85 CE. (© Gudrun Melzer)
    "In year one of the reign of the King of Kings Sri-Toramana, who rules the world with splendor and radiance."
    Mihircula portrait shows ACD and some kind of Mongol/Euro mixed profile similar to those 3-way mixture of groups related to Mongolia_N_East, Russia_Afanasievo, WSHG


    This paper confirms the previous finding by Ning et al. (2019) about Common Tocharians of (or close to) Iron Age Shirenzigou continuing the ancestry of Pre-Tocharian Afanasievo, now with a direct intermediate link through Chemurchek as the transition into Proto-Tocharian, with even more (chronologically and geographically) close populations from Mongolia and China to compare to, dismissing all potential alternative models.

    Y: H-M69 -> H-M82 -> SK1225 -> H-Z5888 -> H-Z5890 -> H-CTS8144 [CTS8144/PF1741/M5498] -> Z34531 (H1a1a4b3b1a8~)
    found 2875 BCE -> Jiroft/IVC Periphery 11459 Shahr-i-Sokte BA2
    mtDNA:U2a1a

    G25 Ancients Dist 1.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 88.4 MAR_Taforalt 2.6NPL_Mebrak 5
    VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA 4 Hidden Content

    Lactose Persistence rs3213871 rs4988243 rs4988183 rs3769005 rs2236783
    found -> DA125, Kangju

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  10. #506
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    1911 census listing my great great granduncle Syed Mohammad Sami and his wife Elvina Minnie Sami, they were newly wed at this time:



    He is listed as being a student from Azamgarh, India which matches other records too.

    They lived on 36 Wellington Street, Gravesend in Kent. It was opposite the Tilbury docks in Essex where many ships disembarked from the colonies.

    I did my undergraduate degree in Kent although in Canterbury.
    Last edited by deuterium_1; 12-23-2020 at 08:51 PM.

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  12. #507
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    Under Passenger 90, Elina (Elvina now widowed after her husband's death in 1918/1919) and her 3 children are listed on this passenger registry as travelling on the SS Nagoya from Bombay (Mumbai) back to London in May 1919:

    Last edited by deuterium_1; 12-31-2020 at 04:15 PM.

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    Outgoing ship, the SS Osterley from London to Australia via India and Ceylon (now Sri Lanka) on 18th December 1914, my great great granduncle S.M. (Syed Mohammad) Sami-Ahmed (now a qualified Barrister), wife and 3 children are listed as travelling together. He was 22 and his wife was 24 (her birthday was 23rd December) which matches earlier records in 1911.

    Their contract ticket number is 175:

    Last edited by deuterium_1; 01-04-2021 at 10:27 AM.

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  16. #509
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    This is a short summary of the history of another village which my family is linked to via marriage, these relatives apparently claimed descent from Sheikh Allama Kamaluddin Awadhi who was a discipline of Nasiruddin Chiragh Dehlavi (an area in Delhi is named after him, I have visited his tomb) who in turn was a disciple of the most famous Sufi saint of Delhi, Nizamuddin Auliya (the basti around his tomb is located near Humayun's tomb in Delhi):

    Sheikhpur is a village of saints, sufis and scholars. It is in Ballia district, Uttar Pradesh, India, (formerly in the District of Azamgarh, UP).

    The history starts when Mohammad "One" the son of Hazrat Abu Bakar Siddique was made the governor of Egypt By Hazrat Ali Karam Allah wajho in his time. In his 13th generation, Hazrat Mohammad 3 S/O Sheikh Abdullah 2 Came from Egypt to Suharwarda in Iraq and settled there in 537 Hijra. Abu Fahas Umar Sheikh Shabuddin Born here in 539 Hijra. Suharwarda is situated on the mountainous region leading towards Azerbaijan. He went to Baghdad at the age of eleven. This was the period of Sheikh Abdul Qadir Jeelani after whose death he became the chief saint of this Sufi branch. He is the descendant of Abu Bakar Siddique the 1st Caliph of Islam. In accordance with the historian Ibne Khalqan his family tree reads "Abu Fahas Umar bin mohammad bin Abdullh bin Mohammad Amuya bin Saad bin Hussain bin Qasim bin Alqa bin Nasar bin Maaz bin Abdr Rahman bin Qasim bin Mohammad bin Abu Bakar (1st Caliph of Islam)."

    Hazrat Shahabuddin's grandson Abdur Rahman migrated to Samnan near Sar-Hind. In eight Hijra his son Allama Sheikh Kamaluddin came to Dehli in 8th Hijra for propagation of Islam and settled here after marriage with the eldest sister of Sheikh Naseeruddin (Chiragh Dehli descendant of Prophet's grandson Imam Hasan Razi Allah Anho). She was a pious women and a descendant of Hazrat Hasan Razi Allah anho. Her tomb is situated in Ayodhya and is famous with the name of "Maqbara of Bari Bua". Allama Sheikh Kamaluddin died in 756 Hijra in Dehli and is buried in the Dargah boundary of Chiragh-e-Dehli. The grandson of Sheikh Kamaluddin "Sheikh Mohammad urf Haji phool Shah" came to Jaunpur for tableegh and later went to Shahr-e-Kharid mohalla chak Haji during the period of Sultan Feroz Shah Tughlaq and finally settled down. This place is now known as Sheikhpur. He died in Sheikhpur in 861 Hijra. He was a great Sufi of his time. Many people accepted Islam on his hand.

    Descendants of Sheikh abdul Wahid (Called Wahidi) and those of Sheikh Maulana Mohammad Zahidi (Called Zahidi) of Sheikhpur are spread over many places in the world. The poet Nushoor Wahidi was also a descendent of this tribe of Sheikhpur.
    Last edited by deuterium_1; 01-12-2021 at 12:17 AM.

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  18. #510
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    Interesting article about Bihari Muslim identity, the author also refers to various Muslim caste groups in Bihar which I didn't know about:

    As a child, I, along with my cousins and neighbourhood boys would think that being a Pathan was the best thing in the world. Whenever we got into a fight with the boys of other castes we would abuse them using their caste names. For example, we would call a Sheikh, “Sheikh Shekhari”. Sheikh is another caste among Muslims. The Sheikhs are believed to have either descended from Arab immigrants, or their forefathers were high caste Hindus who converted to Islam. One corner of our village had a predominantly Sheikh population referred to as “Sheikh Toli”.
    https://scroll.in/article/977374/are...ed-my-identity

    The author is a Bihari Pathan.
    Last edited by deuterium_1; 01-14-2021 at 12:43 PM.

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