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Thread: Tthe language of paragroup R

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by storm View Post
    R1a was carried by forest-steppe hunter-gatherers between the Urals and the Baltic. The precursors of Corded Ware probably lived in the Dnieper-Don region so CWC R1a could come from the Dnieper-Donets and/or Dereivka cultures (we need aDNA). PIE could be the language of Dereivka and was then spread across a very large dialect continuum by Corded Ware and related cultures like Middle Dnieper, Fatyanovo, Balanovo, and Abashevo c. 3200-2500 BC.

    R1b is a bit trickier. European Z2103 most likely comes from Yamna or post-Yamna groups like the Catacomb culture. Its sibling L51 can be best described as circum-Pontic. We really need to find some L51 in aDNA, but if I had to guess, L51 (or its parent L23) might be connected to Maykop and the early Yamnaya. The Vasconic-Caucasian connection may be related to the presence of R1b in other Caucasus groups such as Kura-Araxes. Eastern Bell Beaker groups have significant Yamna-like admixture, which is probably connected to the Yamnaya kurgans that appeared in the Carpathian basin c. 3000 BC.
    My calculations are based solely on modern day y-dna, which I have actually found makes R1a trickier. They suggest surviving European R1b relatively clearly as most likely Pontic in origin, with L51 and Z2109 both looking to have been relatively rapid migrations into Europe, perhaps making it likely that IE was either acquired at their Pontic point of origin or their Germanic destination. Meanwhile, the calculations suggest two possible scenarios for the origins of surviving European R1a - either a later migration from Turkey or an earlier migration from the Levant (i.e. migrations not dissimilar to R1b in time and geography)(whilst there may well have been lots of R1a forest-steppe people, there is little evidence from my large database to indicate that the bulk of surviving R1a descended from them) I suppose there is always the possibility that an incoming R1a CWC itself picked up some elements of IE from an even earlier European population that it displaced - possibly even another (now extinct) branch of R1a.

  2. #22
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    Paragroup R spoke click language.

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    Looks like an extract or two from the book I'm working on could come in handy. This is just unpolished draft at the moment, but you get the idea.
    If, as you say, proto-IE (the language spoken by the MRCA of IE-speaking people) had an agricultural lexicon, would this suggest that it was most likely limited to one or other of R1a & R1b, which had branched away from each other before agriculture had developed?
    Perhaps it was simply R1a's language, which became adopted by the R1b minority population when it first moved in on R1a territory in Northern Europe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by epp View Post
    If, as you say, proto-IE (the language spoken by the MRCA of IE-speaking people) had an agricultural lexicon, would this suggest that it was most likely limited to one or other of R1a & R1b, which had branched away from each other before agriculture had developed?
    Perhaps it was simply R1a's language, which became adopted by the R1b minority population when it first moved in on R1a territory in Northern Europe?
    They branched away from each other genetically long before PIE developed, farming or no farming, but evidently they were still in close proximity to one another geographically on the Eurasian steppe. I don't think we're ever going to be able say who was speaking PIE first.

    Things could have happened in exactly the reverse of what you described.
     


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    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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  7. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by epp View Post
    If, as you say, proto-IE (the language spoken by the MRCA of IE-speaking people) had an agricultural lexicon, would this suggest that it was most likely limited to one or other of R1a & R1b?
    No. R1a and R1b were genetically speaking brothers. They both stem from R1. So we would expect them to stay in the same community and most probably continue to move together, more or less. They both occur in the men of Copper Age Khvalynsk.

    By the way PIE did not just have an agricultural lexicon. It was a Copper Age language.
    Last edited by Jean M; 03-17-2017 at 03:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epp View Post
    Perhaps it was simply R1a's language, which became adopted by the R1b minority population when it first moved in on R1a territory in Northern Europe?
    I'm not sure which period you are thinking of. Both R1b and R1a were present on the European steppe at the time that PIE was forming. So men carrying both of these haplogroups would be part of the PIE speaking community. The Yamnaya move northward to create Corded Ware would have spread PIE. Most of the males in that movement seem to have carried R1a, but some R1b and I2 seem to have been fellow travellers.

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  11. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    They branched away from each other genetically long before PIE developed, farming or no farming, but evidently they were still in close proximity to one another geographically on the Eurasian steppe. I don't think we're ever going to be able say who was speaking PIE first.

    Things could have happened in exactly the reverse of what you described.
    Yes, I agree. In fact, I've failed to convince myself! My data still suggests that R1b was most likely in Central Europe first. If the hypothesis is correct, it would most likely have been the incoming R1a that imposed its IE on the indigenous R1b before going (or being pushed) back Eastwards.

    I consider the author of the thread proposed reasonably that European R1b might have spoken a Kartvelian language, as the Turkish/Georgian border area is precisely where my data indicates is a most likely origin point for it.

  12. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    I'm not sure which period you are thinking of. Both R1b and R1a were present on the European steppe at the time that PIE was forming. So men carrying both of these haplogroups would be part of the PIE speaking community. The Yamnaya move northward to create Corded Ware would have spread PIE. Most of the males in that movement seem to have carried R1a, but some R1b and I2 seem to have been fellow travellers.
    I think it likely that R1a and R1b were for the most part separated by the time of the Copper Age, even if they lived in proximity. Otherwise, how would they have managed to extricate themselves from each other (East & West) so markedly today?

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    Quote Originally Posted by epp View Post
    I think it likely that R1a and R1b were for the most part separated by the time of the Copper Age, even if they lived in proximity. Otherwise, how would they have managed to extricate themselves from each other (East & West) so markedly today?
    The Indo-European speakers appear to have been patrilocal. That means that sons would stay in the same location as their father and wives would move to be with them. That way we would expect to find a variety of mtDNA haplogroups in each small (extended family) community, but only one Y-DNA haplogroup, barring exceptions. An exception might occur where an outside male was accepted as having a useful skill. So we could picture little groups across the steppe all speaking the same language, but Y-DNA R1b might dominate in one, R1a in another. Yet another might happen to be a mixture. Now when people started moving out of the steppe in different directions, we would expect them to move as families. So one group could go one way, another group would go another.

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  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by epp View Post
    Yes, I agree. In fact, I've failed to convince myself! My data still suggests that R1b was most likely in Central Europe first. If the hypothesis is correct, it would most likely have been the incoming R1a that imposed its IE on the indigenous R1b before going (or being pushed) back Eastwards.
    What makes you think that? I guess you know that thus far all but one of the Yamnaya skeletons were R1b-L23.

    Yes, I know none has been R1b-L51 yet, but we have no Yamnaya y-dna from the Pontic steppe or the Carpathian Basin. We do, however, have Bell Beaker y-dna. It has featured plenty of R1b-L51, and Gimbutas and Heyd have both said that Bell Beaker was derived from Yamnaya.

    Given the formation time and tmrca of L23 and his sons, Z2103 and L51, it isn't likely that any of them arose very far from the others.

    Quote Originally Posted by epp View Post
    I consider the author of the thread proposed reasonably that European R1b might have spoken a Kartvelian language, as the Turkish/Georgian border area is precisely where my data indicates is a most likely origin point for it.
    There is absolutely no evidence of any such thing.

    Your data must be extremely interesting. They convince you that R1b arose both in central Europe and on the Turkish/Georgian border.
    Last edited by rms2; 03-17-2017 at 05:23 PM.
     


    Hidden Content


    Y-DNA: R1b-FGC36981 (L21> DF13> Z39589> CTS2501> Z43690> Y8426> BY160> FGC36974>FGC36982 >FGC36981)

    Additional Data:
    Lactase Persistent:
    rs4988235 AA (13910 TT)
    rs182549 TT (22018 AA)

    Red Hair Carrier:
    Arg160Trp+ (rs1805008 T) aka R160W

    Dad's mtDNA: K1a1

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