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Thread: Greek autosomal DNA from the Aegean and Asia Minor (Anatolia)

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amathusian View Post
    @Asimakidis

    Thanks again! Some of these myOrigins profiles are astonishing! Mother: 93% asia minor 7% south europe and mother's brother: 97 asia minor 3 % eastern europe!!

    The myOrigins calculator is a bit peculiar, so I am very curious to see some more detailed results of these people (i.e. Eurogenes K13 or K15). Could you share their GedMatch IDs or if you don't want to do that maybe share their Eurogenes results?

    Thanks!
    Mom:

    # Population Percent
    1 West_Asian 37.75
    2 East_Med 33.43
    3 West_Med 15.18
    4 Red_Sea 5.4
    5 North_Atlantic 4.66
    6 Baltic 1.69
    7 South_Asian 0.88
    8 Oceanian 0.52
    9 East_Asian 0.46
    10 Sub-Saharan 0.01

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Armenian 3.79
    2 Georgian_Jewish 6.95
    3 Assyrian 8.86
    4 Turkish 9.71
    5 Kurdish 11.26
    6 Azeri 11.47
    7 Kurdish_Jewish 12.43
    8 Iranian_Jewish 13.34
    9 Iranian 14.18
    10 Lebanese_Muslim 14.95
    11 Georgian 17.02
    12 Syrian 17.1
    13 Cyprian 17.15
    14 Abhkasian 18.36
    15 Kumyk 19.1
    16 Lebanese_Druze 20.09
    17 Lebanese_Christian 20.17
    18 Adygei 20.42
    19 Balkar 21.42
    20 Samaritan 21.51

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 95.6% Armenian + 4.4% French_Basque @ 2.53
    2 94.9% Armenian + 5.1% Southwest_French @ 2.53
    3 51.7% Cyprian + 48.3% Abhkasian @ 2.53
    4 94.7% Armenian + 5.3% Sardinian @ 2.54
    5 94.8% Armenian + 5.2% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.56
    6 94.4% Armenian + 5.6% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.57
    7 94.6% Armenian + 5.4% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.58
    8 94.9% Armenian + 5.1% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.58
    9 93.4% Armenian + 6.6% North_Italian @ 2.59
    10 94.4% Armenian + 5.6% Spanish_Extremadura @ 2.61
    11 94.7% Armenian + 5.3% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.62
    12 94.7% Armenian + 5.3% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.63
    13 92.6% Armenian + 7.4% Tuscan @ 2.64
    14 94.6% Armenian + 5.4% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.64
    15 94.7% Armenian + 5.3% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.64
    16 94.5% Armenian + 5.5% Portuguese @ 2.64
    17 90.6% Armenian + 9.4% Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.65
    18 94.7% Armenian + 5.3% Spanish_Galicia @ 2.66
    19 89.9% Armenian + 10.1% Central_Greek @ 2.67
    20 89.9% Armenian + 10.1% South_Italian @ 2.74

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Armenian @ 4.292355
    2 Georgian_Jewish @ 7.810628
    3 Assyrian @ 10.154682
    4 Turkish @ 10.866633
    5 Kurdish @ 12.593282
    6 Azeri @ 12.751943
    7 Kurdish_Jewish @ 14.170175
    8 Iranian_Jewish @ 15.212297
    9 Iranian @ 15.798149
    10 Lebanese_Muslim @ 17.118565
    11 Syrian @ 19.327297
    12 Georgian @ 19.703510
    13 Cyprian @ 19.849768
    14 Abhkasian @ 21.213333
    15 Kumyk @ 21.742653
    16 Lebanese_Christian @ 23.285049
    17 Lebanese_Druze @ 23.305182
    18 Adygei @ 23.435518
    19 Balkar @ 24.397161
    20 Jordanian @ 24.452972

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Abhkasian +50% Cyprian @ 2.923192


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Armenian +25% Cyprian +25% Georgian @ 2.224136


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 Armenian + Armenian + Cyprian + Georgian @ 2.224136
    2 Abhkasian + Armenian + Armenian + Cyprian @ 2.523951
    3 Abhkasian + Abhkasian + Cyprian + Cyprian @ 2.923192
    4 Abhkasian + Armenian + Armenian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.927608
    5 Abhkasian + Armenian + Armenian + Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.945573
    6 Abhkasian + Cyprian + Georgian + Lebanese_Christian @ 3.000647
    7 Abhkasian + Armenian + Armenian + Italian_Jewish @ 3.064770
    8 Abhkasian + Abhkasian + Cyprian + Lebanese_Christian @ 3.108352
    9 Abhkasian + Cyprian + Cyprian + Georgian @ 3.110225
    10 Abhkasian + Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + Armenian @ 3.141829
    11 Armenian + Cyprian + Georgian + Georgian_Jewish @ 3.163289
    12 Cyprian + Georgian + Georgian + Lebanese_Christian @ 3.218204
    13 Abhkasian + Armenian + Armenian + Libyan_Jewish @ 3.233187
    14 Abhkasian + Abhkasian + Cyprian + Samaritan @ 3.253300
    15 Abhkasian + Armenian + Cyprian + Georgian_Jewish @ 3.274940
    16 Abhkasian + Abhkasian + Lebanese_Christian + Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.357237
    17 Abhkasian + Cyprian + Georgian + Samaritan @ 3.357672
    18 Armenian + Armenian + Georgian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.366437
    19 Abhkasian + Cyprian + Georgian + Lebanese_Druze @ 3.414490
    20 Armenian + Assyrian + Cyprian + Georgian @ 3.426664

    Mom's brother:

    # Population Percent
    1 West_Asian 36.86
    2 East_Med 36.02
    3 West_Med 15.72
    4 North_Atlantic 5.49
    5 Red_Sea 3.41
    6 Baltic 1.7
    7 Oceanian 0.56
    8 East_Asian 0.24

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Armenian 5.32
    2 Georgian_Jewish 8.14
    3 Assyrian 8.86
    4 Turkish 10.84
    5 Kurdish_Jewish 12.44
    6 Azeri 13.15
    7 Kurdish 13.21
    8 Iranian_Jewish 13.31
    9 Lebanese_Muslim 14.58
    10 Cyprian 16
    11 Iranian 16.12
    12 Syrian 17.34
    13 Lebanese_Druze 18.79
    14 Georgian 19.03
    15 Lebanese_Christian 19.26
    16 Abhkasian 20.19
    17 Samaritan 20.82
    18 Kumyk 20.87
    19 Jordanian 21.79
    20 Adygei 22.3

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 86.2% Armenian + 13.8% South_Italian @ 3.92
    2 93.3% Armenian + 6.7% Sardinian @ 3.97
    3 87.1% Armenian + 12.9% Central_Greek @ 4.05
    4 87.7% Armenian + 12.3% Italian_Jewish @ 4.06
    5 89.1% Armenian + 10.9% West_Sicilian @ 4.08
    6 88.3% Armenian + 11.7% Italian_Abruzzo @ 4.08
    7 90.8% Armenian + 9.2% Tuscan @ 4.1
    8 87.8% Armenian + 12.2% East_Sicilian @ 4.16
    9 92.2% Armenian + 7.8% North_Italian @ 4.17
    10 88.4% Armenian + 11.6% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.21
    11 93.7% Armenian + 6.3% Spanish_Valencia @ 4.23
    12 93.5% Armenian + 6.5% Spanish_Andalucia @ 4.23
    13 87.7% Armenian + 12.3% Sephardic_Jewish @ 4.24
    14 94.2% Armenian + 5.8% Spanish_Aragon @ 4.26
    15 88.9% Armenian + 11.1% Ashkenazi @ 4.27
    16 83% Armenian + 17% Cyprian @ 4.27
    17 56.1% Cyprian + 43.9% Abhkasian @ 4.28
    18 93.8% Armenian + 6.2% Spanish_Murcia @ 4.29
    19 94% Armenian + 6% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 4.3
    20 94.4% Armenian + 5.6% Southwest_French @ 4.3

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Armenian @ 5.987854
    2 Georgian_Jewish @ 9.010170
    3 Assyrian @ 9.948239
    4 Turkish @ 12.167868
    5 Kurdish_Jewish @ 13.961737
    6 Azeri @ 14.695598
    7 Kurdish @ 14.854095
    8 Iranian_Jewish @ 14.978125
    9 Lebanese_Muslim @ 16.519674
    10 Iranian @ 18.007084
    11 Cyprian @ 18.425819
    12 Syrian @ 19.412437
    13 Lebanese_Druze @ 21.660048
    14 Lebanese_Christian @ 22.048283
    15 Georgian @ 22.077065
    16 Abhkasian @ 23.389252
    17 Samaritan @ 23.720896
    18 Kumyk @ 23.862976
    19 Jordanian @ 24.175854
    20 Adygei @ 25.686251

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Abhkasian +50% Cyprian @ 5.463690


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Armenian +25% Cyprian +25% Georgian @ 4.985670


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++
    1 Abhkasian + Armenian + Armenian + Italian_Jewish @ 4.723955
    2 Abhkasian + Armenian + Cyprian + Cyprian @ 4.984016
    3 Armenian + Armenian + Cyprian + Georgian @ 4.985670
    4 Armenian + Armenian + Armenian + Cyprian @ 5.061242
    5 Abhkasian + Armenian + Armenian + Cyprian @ 5.075758
    6 Abhkasian + Armenian + Assyrian + Cyprian @ 5.090988
    7 Abhkasian + Armenian + Assyrian + Italian_Jewish @ 5.101607
    8 Abhkasian + Algerian_Jewish + Armenian + Armenian @ 5.103332
    9 Abhkasian + Armenian + Armenian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 5.109275
    10 Armenian + Assyrian + Cyprian + Georgian @ 5.123168
    11 Armenian + Armenian + Georgian + Italian_Jewish @ 5.168855
    12 Abhkasian + Armenian + Georgian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish @ 5.169093
    13 Abhkasian + Abhkasian + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Christian @ 5.183352
    14 Abhkasian + Armenian + Armenian + Sephardic_Jewish @ 5.190670
    15 Abhkasian + Abhkasian + Italian_Jewish + Lebanese_Druze @ 5.296501
    16 Abhkasian + Cyprian + Georgian + Lebanese_Druze @ 5.358084
    17 Abhkasian + Abhkasian + Cyprian + Lebanese_Druze @ 5.363087
    18 Abhkasian + Armenian + Assyrian + Sephardic_Jewish @ 5.364655
    19 Armenian + Armenian + Georgian + Tunisian_Jewish @ 5.408581
    20 Abhkasian + Armenian + Armenian + Libyan_Jewish @ 5.418462
    Other ancestral lines: Y dna: G>M406>M3302, E>V13>Z16663, J>M172>CTS904
    MtDna: I5a, J1d2a.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amathusian View Post
    Thanks Chatzianastasoglou. Do you have Cypriot ancesatry by the way?
    No, that's just because Cyprus is a Greek state, too.

    Im quite mixed. 25% from Anatolia, 25% from Macedonia (=father) and 50% from Epirus (=mother).

    My father is just 50% Anatolian but perhaps it helps. His K13 results


    K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 26.34
    2 West_Med 22.58
    3 North_Atlantic 16.96
    4 West_Asian 16.42
    5 Baltic 13.67
    6 Red_Sea 2.55


    Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
    13 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Central_Greek @ 5.350992
    2 Greek_Thessaly @ 6.468545
    3 East_Sicilian @ 7.757215
    4 Italian_Abruzzo @ 8.183214
    5 West_Sicilian @ 9.992779
    6 South_Italian @ 10.041720
    7 Ashkenazi @ 12.380610
    8 Tuscan @ 13.569579
    9 Bulgarian @ 14.579862
    10 Romanian @ 17.291784
    11 Algerian_Jewish @ 17.596489
    12 Sephardic_Jewish @ 17.778383
    13 Italian_Jewish @ 17.977381
    14 North_Italian @ 19.149132
    15 Tunisian_Jewish @ 21.955269
    16 Serbian @ 22.351818
    17 Libyan_Jewish @ 22.409407
    18 Cyprian @ 22.761358
    19 Turkish @ 23.429163
    20 Lebanese_Muslim @ 26.160957

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Central_Greek +50% Greek_Thessaly @ 4.159924


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Bulgarian +25% Georgian_Jewish +25% Sardinian @ 3.421864


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 Armenian + Italian_Jewish + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.051877
    2 Armenian + Belorussian + Cyprian + Sardinian @ 3.108569
    3 Armenian + Cyprian + Estonian + Sardinian @ 3.170698
    4 Armenian + Sardinian + Sephardic_Jewish + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.180985
    5 Armenian + Cyprian + Finnish + Sardinian @ 3.283872
    6 Armenian + Cyprian + Polish + Sardinian @ 3.322408
    7 Armenian + Sardinian + Sephardic_Jewish + Southwest_Russian @ 3.362995
    8 Armenian + Italian_Jewish + Sardinian + Southwest_Russian @ 3.363891
    9 Armenian + Cyprian + Sardinian + Southwest_Finnish @ 3.388775
    10 Bulgarian + Bulgarian + Georgian_Jewish + Sardinian @ 3.421864
    11 Armenian + Cyprian + Russian_Smolensk + Sardinian @ 3.444054
    12 Armenian + Cyprian + Sardinian + South_Polish @ 3.453994
    13 Armenian + Cyprian + Estonian_Polish + Sardinian @ 3.456756
    14 Armenian + Estonian + Lebanese_Druze + Sardinian @ 3.476501
    15 Bulgarian + Central_Greek + Central_Greek + Central_Greek @ 3.567668
    16 Armenian + Sardinian + Tunisian_Jewish + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.572845
    17 Armenian + Cyprian + Sardinian + Southwest_Russian @ 3.581363
    18 Georgian_Jewish + Italian_Jewish + Sardinian + Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.594439
    19 Cyprian + Georgian_Jewish + Sardinian + Southwest_Finnish @ 3.600568
    20 Armenian + Cyprian + Lithuanian + Sardinian @ 3.623379








    K15

    Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 4-Ancestors Oracle

    This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
    Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
    Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
    Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 24.05
    2 West_Med 19.16
    3 North_Sea 16.99
    4 West_Asian 16.41
    5 Baltic 8.46
    6 Atlantic 6.90
    7 Eastern_Euro 4.48
    8 Red_Sea 2.67


    Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
    15 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Greek_Thessaly @ 8.355673
    2 Central_Greek @ 10.434028
    3 East_Sicilian @ 11.746453
    4 Ashkenazi @ 11.778436
    5 Italian_Abruzzo @ 12.737460
    6 Greek @ 13.264010
    7 South_Italian @ 13.693043
    8 Tuscan @ 15.636069
    9 West_Sicilian @ 15.851710
    10 Bulgarian @ 17.174557
    11 Italian_Jewish @ 17.735003
    12 Romanian @ 18.484219
    13 Sephardic_Jewish @ 20.014145
    14 Algerian_Jewish @ 20.074167
    15 North_Italian @ 21.069071
    16 Serbian @ 22.015732
    17 Libyan_Jewish @ 22.097607
    18 Tunisian_Jewish @ 23.812155
    19 Cyprian @ 23.901960
    20 Turkish @ 24.071169

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Central_Greek +50% Greek_Thessaly @ 8.352939


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Assyrian +25% Sardinian +25% Swedish @ 8.249183


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 Armenian + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + Spanish_Galicia @ 7.837196
    2 Armenian + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly @ 7.906631
    3 Armenian + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + North_Italian @ 8.038363
    4 Central_Greek + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly @ 8.051839
    5 Armenian + Assyrian + Sardinian + Swedish @ 8.057163
    6 Armenian + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + West_German @ 8.062609
    7 Armenian + Assyrian + North_Swedish + Sardinian @ 8.191891
    8 Armenian + Kurdish_Jewish + Sardinian + Swedish @ 8.233801
    9 Armenian + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + Portuguese @ 8.234939
    10 Armenian + Assyrian + Sardinian + West_Norwegian @ 8.248930
    11 Assyrian + Assyrian + Sardinian + Swedish @ 8.249183
    12 Armenian + Central_Greek + Greek_Thessaly + West_German @ 8.252642
    13 Assyrian + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + West_German @ 8.265647
    14 Armenian + Greek_Thessaly + South_Italian + West_German @ 8.275228
    15 Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + South_Italian @ 8.295702
    16 East_Sicilian + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly @ 8.318786
    17 Armenian + Assyrian + Norwegian + Sardinian @ 8.320426
    18 Assyrian + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly + Spanish_Galicia @ 8.326842
    19 Armenian + French + Greek_Thessaly + Greek_Thessaly @ 8.332685
    20 Armenian + Greek_Thessaly + Libyan_Jewish + West_German @ 8.345661
    Last edited by Chatzianastasoglou; 03-24-2017 at 11:19 PM.

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  5. #13
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    @Asimakidis, @Chatzianastasoglou

    Thank you both for sharing these very interesting Eurogenes results!

    Asimakidis, the Eurogenes results clarify things! I was expecting your relatives' ancestry to be a bit closer to Cypriots, but it seems they have higher West Asian ancestry rather than East Med ancestry. The fact that their closest population is Armenians, makes sense. I would expect Trabzon Turks also to cluster close to them. Trabzon Turks are unique in that they have zero proto-Turkic (i.e. Central Asian) ancestry.

    Chatzianastasoglou, your Macedonia and Epirus ancestry are very apparent. It is very interesting how different the genetic profile of Macedonian Greeks and Anatolian Greeks are, given that geographically they are not so distant from each other..

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  7. #14
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    The General posted this last week:



    "Albanians - black dots
    Greeks - black pluses
    Hungarians - black squares
    Macedonians - black Xs
    Montenegrins - black diamonds
    Romanians - black triangles"


    One funny thing I noticed is that my father (the black X) plots right next to some of the Greek samples:

     


    Keep in mind, he's completely Jewish and has no recent Greek ancestry. This is of course part of a larger pattern, I've seen results from Crete, Zakynthos, Chios and Kalymnos which are pretty much identical to Ashkenazi Jews, much has been said about the similarity between Sicilians and Ashkenazim but from my experience at least a fair chunk of Aegean Greeks are even more similar to them. How do you think this came about? Some insist that the Slavic migrations' impact was enough to alter Greece's genetic landscape, leaving only the more isolated parts of Greece (the Aegean, Mani, etc) "untouched", of course without ancient data this cannot be confirmed or infirmed.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 03-27-2017 at 07:45 PM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  9. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post

    One funny thing I noticed is that my father (the black X) plots right next to some of the Greek samples:

     


    Keep in mind, he's completely Jewish and has no recent Greek ancestry. This is of course part of a larger pattern, I've seen results from Crete, Zakynthos, Chios and Kalymnos which are pretty much identical to Ashkenazi Jews, much has been said about the similarity between Sicilians and Ashkenazim but from my experience at least a fair chunk of Aegean Greeks are even more similar to them. How do you think this came about? Some insist that the Slavic migrations' impact was enough to alter Greece's genetic landscape, leaving only the more isolated parts of Greece (the Aegean, Mani, etc) "untouched", of course without ancient data this cannot be confirmed or infirmed.
    It could just be a quirk of genetics; AJs and Greek islanders are made of similar components but it doesn't necessarily mean they're related or they're of the same stock (IBD analysis would help figure that out methinks). Somebody - it might have been you - mentioned that Classical-era Greeks possibly played a role in the AJ ethnogenesis. It's possible there was interaction, I'm not well-versed in the history of the Eastern Med at that time.

    Regarding your second point, I guess it depends on what part of Greece you're talking about. For sure Thrace and Macedonia were impacted the most by Slavic migrations (not to mention interaction with their Bulgarian neighbors over the centuries); Epirus an Thessaly maybe as well, but not as much as the previously mentioned two. But as we saw in Stamatoyannopolous et al the impact wasn't as pronounced in the Peloponnese as previously thought, ranging from near zero "Slavic" input to as high as 14%.

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  11. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erlembaldo View Post
    It could just be a quirk of genetics; AJs and Greek islanders are made of similar components but it doesn't necessarily mean they're related or they're of the same stock (IBD analysis would help figure that out methinks). Somebody - it might have been you - mentioned that Classical-era Greeks possibly played a role in the AJ ethnogenesis. It's possible there was interaction, I'm not well-versed in the history of the Eastern Med at that time.
    Yes, I'm the one who claimed that the Mediterranean admixture in Western Jews might actually be Greek in origin, the jury is still out on this of course. I did not mean to imply that AJs are closely related to Greeks, I agree that they might plot together for entirely different reasons (though, at the core, lies a certain similarity in the nature of the admixture events which have led to the emergence of these populations).

    Regarding your second point, I guess it depends on what part of Greece you're talking about. For sure Thrace and Macedonia were impacted the most by Slavic migrations (not to mention interaction with their Bulgarian neighbors over the centuries); Epirus an Thessaly maybe as well, but not as much as the previously mentioned two. But as we saw in Stamatoyannopolous et al the impact wasn't as pronounced in the Peloponnese as previously thought, ranging from near zero "Slavic" input to as high as 14%.
    Absolutely, much like Italy, Greece has a lot of substructure, the recent study on the Peloponnese highlighted that the Maniots basically fall in the Eastern Mediterranean continuum (which includes Sicilians, South Italians, Maltese and Western Jews). The question here is whether that kind of substructure already existed prior to the arrival of Slavic speakers, in turn we'd need to figure out how pristinely Slavic these groups were in order to gauge the impact they had. It is unfortunate that archeogenetics is so focused on Northern and Eastern Europe, we are left with crumbs as far as the Mediterranean is of concern, we sorely need data from Italy, Greece, Anatolia and the Levant dating back to the Bronze Age and Iron Age.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 03-28-2017 at 12:10 AM.
    מכורותיך ומולדותיך מארץ הכנעני אביך האמורי ואמך חתית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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  13. #17
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    Indeed a major migration leading to sub-structuring of the modern Greek population is the Slavic expansion. I am not sure how accurately the latest Stamatoyannopoulos et al study quantifies this. Check some valid criticism by David Wasolowski at the Eurogenes blog. Also, there were other recent migrations which introduced non-Greek admixture to modern Greeks, namely the Vlachs (Aromanians) and the Arvanites (Albanians). There are two ethnic Greek populations, which have not been affected at all from the three aforementioned migrations: Anatolian Greeks and Greek Cypriots. Interestingly, they both deviate genetically from mainland Greeks. Not sure what this means.. Without Bronze/Iron Age DNA from Greece/Anatolia/Cyprus we can never tell..

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  15. #18
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    How comes then that mainland Greeks are closely related to Southern Italians? Did they suffer from a slavic expansion, too?

    In my opinion Anatolian Greeks could be just (predominantly) native Anatolians who were once (as it happened everywhere in the larger Eastern Mediterranean region for many centuries) hellenized (either in the times of the Greek colonies, or in the time of Alexander's Hellenistic Expansion or during the so called Byzantine times).

    Hellenization did continuously take place, it's the quintessence of Hellenism since Alexander the Great.

    In my opinion the close relationship of mainland Greeks to Albanians and Sicilians could imply that the "original" ancient (mainland) Greeks were more like these three peoples (but of course not the same). Although culturally, the Anatolian Greeks used to be pretty much more sophisticated than mainland Greeks for many many centuries, especially from the beginning of the Byzantine Empire till 1922.

    Just my modest two cents...

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    @Chatzianastasoglou

    I totally agree that what you are mentioning can very well be a valid explanation for the differences between mainland Greeks, Anatolian Greeks, and Greek Cypriots. The million dollar question is what was the genetic admixture of: 1. Mycenaean Greeks; 2. Dorian Greeks; 3. Ionian Greeks. If these three differ, then basically Greekness is just a cultural term, which encompassed from anceint times different population groups. If these however are found to be the same, then the recent sub-structuring of Greeks surely is a result of more recent migrations.

    By the way, even though Peloponnesians do resemble South/Central Italians, from what I have seen, Central Greeks and especially North Greeks, deviate substantially from them and start approaching Balkanic (Slavic) populations. I do not want to exaggerate the Slavic contribution to the Greek gene pool, but at the same time I beleive it should not be ignored. Ancient DNA will give us the answers.. I am open to everything!

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  19. #20
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    I'm also open, of course.

    Personally, I expected Macedonian Greeks to be more Slavic than they actually are. Despite their (relatively higher) Slavic admixture, they are still closer to southern Greeks and Sicilians and Albanians than to Serbs or Bulgarians. This goes at least for my father whose mother was from Kastoria, a strongly Greek "island" within an almost wholly Slavic or Slavophone environment back in the 19. century. I doubt that this is because of his Anatolian father. (My father is 20% Slavic and 38 Southern Europe according to ftdna, rest is Anatolian).

    Also don't forget that matches with balkanians can be through common local Balkan (Greek?) ancestors, too. The Slavs did not only migrate and occupy but will also have assimilated local (grecophone) populations. Their Slavic admixture does hardly reach 50% does it?

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