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Thread: Any interest in a Haplogroup and/or Subclade Badge/Shield Design?

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  1. #1
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    Any interest in a Haplogroup and/or Subclade Badge/Shield Design?

    Just wondering if there is any interest in adopting a badge, or shield logo etc for our haplogroup.

    I have an interest in Heraldry and graphic design and would be happy to facilitate an effort if there is interest (although I may live to regret opening this can of worms ).

    This idea came to me today after I saw a gentlemen on the facebook U152 page using my current anthrogencia avatar (the red and gold shield with the celtic triskelion and the Northern Italo rosa camuna symbol design). He may have thought it was something "official" to represent U152. I wasn't offended, but took it as a compliment that he liked my design.

    Anyway, that got me to thinking maybe there is interest in a U152 shield/badge design.

    I realize getting any sort of universal consensus on a design will be next to impossible, but if there was a design idea that most agreed upon, then maybe we could go forward.

    IF there is interest and IF we ever get to the point of an agreed upon design, would we want options on identifying subclades of U152 design?

    Some possibilities:

    1. There is only one haplogroup design, and all sub-clades/branches are identified with a name/identifier. This idea would be easy to change as new discoveries are made and the tree gets rearranged, and wouldn't effect the basic design. But it would require that the design be applicable to the whole of the haplogroup e.g. not exclusively Celtic, Italic, or whatever (as illustrated in top row of image below).

    2. The branches directly below the haplogroup would have some change/addition to the haplogroup design. For example. Different colors, or a border around the basic design. Potential problem with this idea is if SNPs/Indels in between the main haplgroup and a branch are later identified (as illustrated in row 2 and 3 below).

    3. The branches include symbols that represent the cultures they are part of. E.g. vast majority found in present day Italy, Spain, Netherlands etc.

    The image below is just to illustrate the concepts above and not as actual design suggestion (they're too ugly for that )

    Haplogroup-subclade design ideas.jpg

    We may want to include symbol(s) to represent a culture/tribe associated with the haplgroup or subclade. E.g. symbol(s) for Bell Beaker, Urnfield, Celtic, Hallstaat, La Tene, Belgic, Gaulish, Lepontic, Lombardic, Iceni, Roman, etc cultures/tribes.

    Just to reiterate, I do not presume to have any authority to make this happen. I'm just seeing if there is any interest in pursuing it further.

    Maybe the starting point is coming up with agreed upon guidelines in the design that other haplogroups would want to adopt.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 02-04-2017 at 11:25 PM.
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  3. #2
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    Once the big ancient dna study is released we will hopefully have more to work with, but we already know that U152 was associated with Bell Beaker.

    A common theme in the Bell Beaker pottery is the Zigzag design which in heraldry is called an "indented" line. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_(heraldry)








    So an idea would be to incorporate a symbol(s) related to Bell Beaker (and other pertinent cultures) into the badge/shield
    monochromatic-indented.png
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 02-06-2017 at 01:27 AM.
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  5. #3
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    Another possible U152 related culture (on at least some subclades) is the Urnfield Culture which often has a similar design in armor, helmets, bowls etc.







    Again this type of pattern (or some other) might be incorporated into a design for subclades related to Urnfield such as a heraldic bordure bezanty (bezant is the heraldic term for circle) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bezant




    Or a bend bezanty


    Or many other ways in which an Urnfield connection to certain U152 subclades could be used.

    One idea might be a basic U152 design with a Bezant bordure for subclades with a Urnfield connection.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 02-06-2017 at 01:28 AM.
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    Hi MitchellSince1893, I think it's a brilliant idea, it can even be fun. Jesko Stampa and I agreed on the same SNP Terminal, we are both hanging from the haplogroup (R-P312 / S116> Z40481> ZZ11> U152 / S28> L2 / S139> Z41150> BY4245). My most distant ancestors are from 1609 (birth of my ninth grandfather), although it is for other notarial documents that in the sixteenth century lived in Casanova Lerrone (today in Savona, Italy).

    Jesko Stampa has his furthest ancestor in Prussia, although he is known to be a foreigner of that land, and is suspected to have been born about 1720, probably somewhere between the Italian-Swiss Alps (Gravedona, Stampa) and perhaps in the present Czech Republic Or Poland, but whose ancestors may have come from Gravedona (On Lake Como). We're trying to find his birth certificate, but it's complicated.

    We also have over-the-top kits that were born outside the current borders of Italy (in Wales, England, Ireland, Lebanon, the latter think we could get there with the Crusades, have information from their ancestors since the time of the Crusades , Although I have to say, that in this case, I have not seen the documentation.)

    Regards
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ BY4245+ BY3485+ BY3478+ , Giovanni Domenicus Rabai, b. 1609, Savona, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H65, María García Martínez, b. 1746, Cuenca, Spain

    Manuel David Rabaez 1974, Manuel Rabaez 1948, Manuel Rabaez 1912, Antonio Rabay 1868, Antonio Rabay 1833, Manuel Rabay 1791, Manuel Rabay 1764, Pedro Rabai 1727, Pedro Joseph Rabai 1691, Giovanni Battista Rabai 1647, Jo. Domenicus Rabai 1609, Pietrus Rabai (work in progress...)

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    I like the idea of a logo that shows our haplogroup, but in a world which seems more and more obsessed with the things that divide us and less and less with science, I think that a flag or a shield is going in the wrong direction.
    My suggestion would be to go with something more DNA-like and with the text "R-U152" instead (and no submarines!)

    Funny coincidence - we are going to climb mountains in the Austrian and Bavarian Alps this summer and my wife insisted that we visited Halstatt on the way, as it is a very lovely place. I don't know why, but it was only last week, long after the hotels were booked, that I realised why the word "Halstatt" rang a bell! And now, I was even considering to order a custom made T-shirt with the words "R-U152" and see if I got any reactions on the street there

    Anyway, if you can agree on a logo, please put it up for sale on Cafepress so we can order T-shirts, mugs, mousemats etc...

    Kind regards
    Anders
    Last edited by A.Morup; 02-06-2017 at 09:03 AM.

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  11. #6
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    Like the Nordic flag design used by many countries and regions that share a common identity, one idea would be to have a basic design that would vary by colors to show different branches.
    Nordic-cross_Flags-60.jpg

    Monochromatically the designs would all look the same. Members of branches could decide on their own colors as long as it wasn't the same as another already established branch.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 02-16-2017 at 11:58 PM.
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  13. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Like the Nordic flag design used by many countries and regions that share a common identity, one idea would be to have a basic design that would vary by colors to show different branches.
    Nordic-cross_Flags-60.jpg

    Mono-chromatically the designs would all look the same
    Now that we have a design, black is a good color for U152 as a whole because black is the color you get when all colors are added together.

    The most apolitical/unemotional way I can think to do it (to avoid a combination of colors for a subclade being associated with a certain national colors) is to assign them based on what is most common.

    In national flags these are the most common colors
    Color : Percent of flags that have that color:
    Red 77.08%
    White 72.92%
    Blue 53.13%
    Yellow/Gold 46.3%
    Green 45.31%
    Black 30.73%
    Orange 4.69%
    Brown 4.69%
    Gray 3.13%
    Purple 1.04%

    So for assignment purposes using the color order found in flags above:

    Most common U152 subclade would be: red and white
    2nd most common: Blue and white
    3rd most common: Gold and white
    4th most common: Green and white
    5th most common: Red and Gold
    6th most common: Blue and Gold
    7th most common: Green and Gold
    8th most common: Black and Gold
    9th most common: Orange and White
    10th most common: Brown and White
    11th most common: Gray and White
    12th most common: Purple and White
    13th most common: Orange and Gold
    14th most common: Brown and Gold
    15th most common: Gray and Gold
    16th most common: Purple and Gold

    You could repeat the process for 2 to 4 levels down as shown in the image below...or just stop at the level below U152.

    If such a system was adopted, then an arbitrary date would be selected to set the colors based on the U152 project numbers. E.g. Father's day 2017, or the date the U152 project crosses the 2000 member mark.

    The above random color assignment process is just meant to remove any emotion/desires from the process. e.g. a Greek U152 L2 guy wants Blue and White, a Swiss L2 guy wants red and white, a Spanish L2 fellow wants red and gold, a Swedish L2 guy wants blue and gold etc . By making assignments based on most common subclades get the most common colors removes any association with a certain country's colors.

    OR

    If there is no interest in the above hierarchical approach, we just stick to a single U152 design. If the latter then we could look at other color combos for U152. e.g natural colors: blue sky, white mountains, green field.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 05-17-2017 at 09:35 PM.
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    I hope the U152 origin will be in the Black Forest region in this case.
    Known ancestry: 92.6% German (66.8% North German), 4.7% Danish, 1.8% Czech, 0.8% Austrian, 0.1% Swiss.
    EUROGENES K13: N German, N Dutch, DNK, SWE, NOR. Ancestry: Germanic 75%, Sweden 13%, Norway 11%, Baltic 1%. LM: NOR, DNK, NLD, N-DEU, SWE.
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    Y-DNA: R1b/U152/Z36/CTS4333, Thuringia 1634, probably Alsace 1552, -- mt-DNA: H

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    ...OR

    If there is no interest in the above hierarchical approach, we just stick to a single U152 design. If the latter then we could look at other color combos for U152. e.g natural colors: blue sky, white mountains, green field.
    Natural colors


    Or if the goal is to have all the colors in found in most flags...
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 05-18-2017 at 08:37 PM.
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  17. #10
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    Good idea
    Known ancestry: 92.6% German (66.8% North German), 4.7% Danish, 1.8% Czech, 0.8% Austrian, 0.1% Swiss.
    EUROGENES K13: N German, N Dutch, DNK, SWE, NOR. Ancestry: Germanic 75%, Sweden 13%, Norway 11%, Baltic 1%. LM: NOR, DNK, NLD, N-DEU, SWE.
    23andMe: NW Europe 82.5% (French/German 50.2%, Scandinavian 9.1%, British/Irish 3.2%), East Europe 11.5%, South Europe 1.5%. DNAL: NW Euro 81%, NE Euro 11%, Med 6.5%
    Y-DNA: R1b/U152/Z36/CTS4333, Thuringia 1634, probably Alsace 1552, -- mt-DNA: H

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