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Thread: Any interest in a Haplogroup and/or Subclade Badge/Shield Design?

  1. #31
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    I haven't forgotten about this project, but we are kind of in a holding pattern until the Big Bell Beaker Behemoth Paper comes out.

    There is a good chance U152 was involved in copper mining/metal working, so if proven we might want to include something related to this.

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  3. #32
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    Well the new studies are in. All U152 samples so far are Bell Beaker (BB ), but unfortunately they were all U152>L2 subclade.

    However, the RISE563 BB sample has now been identified as the oldest known U152 sample at 2572–2512 BCE. I don't believe any subclades were identified in this sample so this may be an indication the earliest U152 was indeed Bell Beaker

    Hopefully once the samples are publicly available some of the P312 samples may be identified as other subclades of U152.

    Here are the items found in the ancient U152 graves from the Olalde study

    -Two incomplete Bell Beakers vessels, a copper dagger, a wrist-guard, few lithic tools and ornaments.
    -A Bell Beaker, an urn, a bowl, and a jug, arrowhead, and two stone tools
    -Bone pin, 5 decorated bow-shaped bone pendants, 2 fragmented boar’s tusks and 11 flints
    -Broad metope-decorated beaker, 10 V-formed perforated bone buttons and 3 flints
    -Arrowhead and several pieces of flint

    If it turns out BB is a U152 wide characteristic then the Bell Beaker shape might be incorporated into the design.

    U152-BB-Shield.png

    Again with symbolism for U152 in the form of a "U" shape "1" Horse, "5" peaks, "2" arrows.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 05-13-2017 at 06:21 PM.
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  5. #33
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    Hello MitchellSince1893,

    Current studies suggest that U152 was born in Bavaria, and is not the Alps. It is right? If so, it would be pointless to place the alps on the shield, except, perhaps, for some subclasses downstream of L2. What do you think?

    Regards
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ BY4245+ BY3485+ BY3478+ , Giovanni Domenicus Rabai, b. 1609, Savona, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H65, María García Martínez, b. 1746, Cuenca, Spain

    Manuel David Rabaez 1974, Manuel Rabaez 1948, Manuel Rabaez 1912, Antonio Rabay 1868, Antonio Rabay 1833, Manuel Rabay 1791, Manuel Rabay 1764, Pedro Rabai 1727, Pedro Joseph Rabai 1691, Giovanni Battista Rabai 1647, Jo. Domenicus Rabai 1609, Pietrus Rabai (work in progress...)

  6. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    If it turns out BB is a U152 wide characteristic then the Bell Beaker shape might be incorporated into the design.

    U152-BB-Shield.png

    Again with symbolism for U152 in the form of a "U" shape "1" Horse, "5" peaks, "2" arrows.
    I like the subtlety of your tweak for a Bell Beaker shape. (Maybe a similar white shape, inverted, to flatten the beaker's base?) I'm not sure U152 deserves it more than anybody else, below P312; and trying to incorporate an alphanumerical lab designation in heraldry just seems quirky. But probably I'm just jealous, there are way more U shapes in nature than DF shapes, or FGC shapes. Hmm, lightning could work for ZZ11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893 View Post
    Well the new studies are in. All U152 samples so far are Bell Beaker (BB ), but unfortunately they were all U152>L2 subclade.

    However, the RISE563 BB sample has now been identified as the oldest known U152 sample at 2572–2512 BCE. I don't believe any subclades were identified in this sample so this may be an indication the earliest U152 was indeed Bell Beaker

    Hopefully once the samples are publicly available some of the P312 samples may be identified as other subclades of U152.

    Here are the items found in the ancient U152 graves from the Olalde study

    -Two incomplete Bell Beakers vessels, a copper dagger, a wrist-guard, few lithic tools and ornaments.
    -A Bell Beaker, an urn, a bowl, and a jug, arrowhead, and two stone tools
    -Bone pin, 5 decorated bow-shaped bone pendants, 2 fragmented boar’s tusks and 11 flints
    -Broad metope-decorated beaker, 10 V-formed perforated bone buttons and 3 flints
    -Arrowhead and several pieces of flint

    If it turns out BB is a U152 wide characteristic then the Bell Beaker shape might be incorporated into the design.

    U152-BB-Shield.png

    Again with symbolism for U152 in the form of a "U" shape "1" Horse, "5" peaks, "2" arrows.
    I think this is "the one" and is production ready.
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  10. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravai View Post
    Hello MitchellSince1893,

    Current studies suggest that U152 was born in Bavaria, and is not the Alps. It is right? If so, it would be pointless to place the alps on the shield, except, perhaps, for some subclasses downstream of L2. What do you think?

    Regards
    It has two meaning. Remember it is a design found on Bell Beakers. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post212324

    Regardless of where U152 started is not meant to imply origin but rather the high percentage of U152 found all around the Alps today. See posts #8 and 10.

    We are probably never going to find the actual origin of U152 but the currently oldest known U1152 at the Osterhofen-Altenmarkt bell beaker grave, is only 60 miles /100 km from the Alpine region. And if you draw a line from here to the next oldest known site (going by mid point of the date ranges) at Villard, France then it goes right through the Alps.

    If it helps we at least know the Alps were part of some U152 men's life going back to ~2300 BC. But if it still bothers folks, then just think of it as a common design on Beaker pottery.

    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    ...I'm not sure U152 deserves it more than anybody else, below P312...
    Not implying U152 has a monopoly on Bell Beaker, but it is undeniable part of early U152's life.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 05-14-2017 at 04:07 PM.
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    ...Maybe a similar white shape, inverted, to flatten the beaker's base
    Great idea. Something like this

    U152-BB-Shield.png
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  14. #38
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    Thank you. I think it would look better if the "U" has a different color than the bell beaker.

    Regards

  15. #39
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    Can you try placing the four elements in the previous design? The horse and arrows up, the Alps and below the bell beaker.

    Thanks you

  16. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravai View Post
    Thank you. I think it would look better if the "U" has a different color than the bell beaker.

    Regards
    On the colors, I think it's best to keep U152 as monochromatic, but if it's decided to use different colors to show different subclades, then the U could be a different color as you got a few levels down. I can give you an example later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravai View Post
    Can you try placing the four elements in the previous design? The horse and arrows up, the Alps and below the bell beaker.

    Thanks you
    If you moved the order around then you would change the number order U125
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 05-14-2017 at 10:18 PM.
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