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Thread: Any interest in a Haplogroup and/or Subclade Badge/Shield Design?

  1. #11
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    How mountains are simply displayed in some heraldic designs.






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  2. #12
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    Other common symbols for the Alps is the edweisse flower. It is found in a number of alpine heraldic shields


    And the Alpine Ibex aka steinbock
    20170217_002417.png
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 02-17-2017 at 05:26 AM.
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  3. #13
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    In Eupedia they have updated the U152 tree. Maybe it can serve for the creation of the shields.

    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplog...shtml#S28-U152

    Regards

    David
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ BY4245+ BY3485+ BY3478+ , Giovanni Domenicus Rabai, b. 1609, Savona, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H65, María García Martínez, b. 1746, Cuenca, Spain

    Manuel David Rabaez 1974, Manuel Rabaez 1948, Manuel Rabaez 1912, Antonio Rabay 1868, Antonio Rabay 1833, Manuel Rabay 1791, Manuel Rabay 1764, Pedro Rabai 1727, Pedro Joseph Rabai 1691, Giovanni Battista Rabai 1647, Jo. Domenicus Rabai 1609, Pietrus Rabai (work in progress...)

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     MitchellSince1893 (02-17-2017)

  5. #14
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    Got an email response from Marco Foppoli. He said it was ok to share it with the group. He may join the discussion after he registers on anthrogenica.

    Dear Mark,

    Thanks for your email and very glad to meet you following the tracks of our U152 ancient common origin :-)

    Well, yes I am a professional graphic designer and professional heraldic artist. I have read the thread with all interesting ideas and thoughts. For personal reasons I am an expert of heraldry of the Alpine countries. I am originating from the Valtellina/Veltlin the Alpine valley today in Lombardy but until 18th C. part of Switzerland as part of the "Three Gray Leagues State", Grisons of today, and I am Beisitzer - council member - of the Schweizerische Heraldische Gesellschaft. Actually I live in Brescia on the Lombard plan, a city between Milano and Verona.

    I like your idea to have a simple shield as arms of the U152 group of course as an "heraldic logo". I absolutely like your suggestions to transform graphic patterns of the old pots as an "heraldic pattern"; that's sounds good, that's can design an arms "modern" and old at the same time. I see a combination with an "heraldic skyline between" mountain/Alps, as an heraldic "Indented" line of partition. A good idea to work on.

    I see I am unable to see many time the thread; how I can register me in the group? Let me know.

    I add here a picture of the "Stele di Bormio" (IV century BC) found in Bormio Valtellina the Alpine valley of which I am originary. The stele shows two alpine Celts warriors. I think it's very interesting for so many details of two warriors. The ancient and scenical town of Bormio is near Engadin (Sudbunden, CH) and Vintschgau/Valvenosta (Südtirol). I hope you enjoy. As you can see two shields have graphic pattern that sounds a little like the pots' pattern.


    Well I think could be a good start for now. Feel free to bring my words in the thread if you think useful.


    Regards,

    Marco
    Image he sent referenced above.
    SteleOfBormio.jpg
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 02-17-2017 at 01:26 PM.
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  7. #15
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    Capturing some of the previous thoughts on:

    1. a simple design e.g. Nordic flag design that can show subclades sharing a common identity via color changes
    2. Incorporating the Alps possibly with an indented line
    3. Incorporating ancient culture(s) where ancient U152 dna has been proven to be a part of. (indented line could also represent Bell Beaker as it's often found on beaker pottery)
    4. Tying back into the science of what the design represents i.e. Y-DNA

    I came up with this design (two of them both in black and white) which is good at illustrating the benefits of starting out with a simple design to build upon if we decide to show subclades several levels down.




    The "Pall" is a Y shaped heraldic charge. It may be a good choice to show that this design is representing a Y-DNA branch.
    The Indented line at the top represent that this y-dna line is found near the Alps. In fact sometimes U152 has been referred to the "Alpine" Y-dna haplogroup.

    The following images illustrate how this design could be used by changing colors (tinctures) to represent the different U152 subclades. As to what colors were chosen to represent which subclades, I simply assigned the most popular colors in heraldry and flags to the most numerous subclades in the U152 project.

    Most common colors/tinctures/metals are:
    1. Red (gules, tincture)
    2. White (argent, metal)
    3. Yellow/Gold (or, metal)
    4. Blue (azul tincture)
    4. Black (sable, tincture)
    5. Green (Vert, tincture)

    Other less common heraldic colors/tinctures followed, such as purple and orange.
    The remaining colors were shades of the first 5 tinctures above. i.e. a dark red, light blue, gray, light green, light violet, brown/copper

    I actually looked at flags where U152 was found to see if I could assign a color to what would make sense from a geographic perspective, but all subclades were located where there were plenty of red and white flags, so assigning the highest frequency colors to the most numerous subclades, and working down, seemed to be a good option at coming up with an assignment system.

    U152 subclades

    So for example, L2 is the most common U152 subclade, and red and white are the most common colors. With ZZ45 and red and gold being the 2nd most common and so on.

    L2 subclades

    The colors are just repeated in the top area above the alps (indented line) with most popular colors again being assigned to the most numerous subclades in the U152 project.

    And you can keep on repeating the process making the design just a little more complex as you step through the subclades.
    .
    ZZ41150 subclades with color of area below the idented line changed for each subclade following the same color order


    Z49 (subclade of ZZ44150) subclades get a colored border


    Z142 (subclade of Z49) subclades get a border modification...again following the same color order


    I stopped at Z150 (subclade of Z142), which added an additional border change, but there was no reason one has to stop here, it could keep going, getting increasingly complex at each level.
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    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 02-22-2017 at 02:58 AM.
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  9. #16
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    BY425 is a mistake? You mean BY4245?

    Great job!

    Thanks
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ BY4245+ BY3485+ BY3478+ , Giovanni Domenicus Rabai, b. 1609, Savona, Italy
    Maternal: Haplogroup H65, María García Martínez, b. 1746, Cuenca, Spain

    Manuel David Rabaez 1974, Manuel Rabaez 1948, Manuel Rabaez 1912, Antonio Rabay 1868, Antonio Rabay 1833, Manuel Rabay 1791, Manuel Rabay 1764, Pedro Rabai 1727, Pedro Joseph Rabai 1691, Giovanni Battista Rabai 1647, Jo. Domenicus Rabai 1609, Pietrus Rabai (work in progress...)

  10. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravai View Post
    BY425 is a mistake? You mean BY4245?

    Great job!

    Thanks
    Yes it's supposed to be BY4245. Good catch. I went back and fixed it in my post above. The numbers below some of the subclades are just the current number found in the U152 project, which as mentioned, was used to assign color order.

    If such a system were adopted, one could pick a date in the future to assign colors e.g. the date that the U152 project crosses the 2000 mark, or father's day, or DNA Day (25 April), or some other date.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 02-21-2017 at 01:48 PM.
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  12. #18
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    Any more feedback on this general proposal in post 15 above?

    Close to the mark? Way off the mark?

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    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 02-25-2017 at 09:49 PM.
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    Hello Mark,

    Even though the Y theme has solid logic and looks good, if we consider that all halpogroups could have shields at some point, it would make the "Y" design very redundant.

    Aside from the mountain peaks, I always thought a horse (or horse head) would be nice to see on a U152 shield, especially since U152 was likely born and spread by Central and Western Europe's first horse riders. If not on the shield itself, then possible to the left and right and maybe even above the shield. I'm sure Marco could give examples, but here is one...



    Also, the bow and arrow seems to have been the preferred weapon of choice for the Bell Beaker people, so something similar to this...

    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543 >> PR5365, Pietro Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

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  15. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    Hello Mark,

    Even though the Y theme has solid logic and looks good, if we consider that all halpogroups could have shields at some point, it would make the "Y" design very redundant.

    Aside from the mountain peaks, I always thought a horse (or horse head) would be nice to see on a U152 shield, especially since U152 was likely born and spread by Central and Western Europe's first horse riders. If not on the shield itself, then possible to the left and right and maybe even above the shield. I'm sure Marco could give examples, but here is one...

    Also, the bow and arrow seems to have been the preferred weapon of choice for the Bell Beaker people, so something similar to this...
    Thank you for your feedback Richard. Yes I could see how the Y shape could become redundant if other haplogroups followed suit.

    So alps, bow/arrow and/or horse?

    Rough idea based on the above (colors just chosen to be natural, but they could be any combination)



    Black and white version

    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 02-27-2017 at 04:17 AM.
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