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Thread: Central-West Asian Y-DNA I

  1. #1
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    Central-West Asian Y-DNA I

    Just revisited Di Cristafaro et al. 2013's uniparental data from Central Asia and had a good look at the Y-DNA I's for some unknown reason (intuition? Cannot pin down the precise motivation here).

    This peculiar result popped out (showing Y-Filer panel):

    Code:
     Y defining marker	Sample	Population	DYS389-I	DYS389-II	DYS390	DYS456	DYS394/19	DYS385a	DYS385b	DYS458	DYS437	DYS438	DYS448	YGATAH4	DYS391	DYS392	DYS393	DYS439	YGATAC4/Y_DYS635	DYS388	DYS426
    I-M258	AZ6_5	Hazara-Bamiyan	12	28	22	15	15	12	14	16	16	10	20	12	10	11	15	11	21	12	11
    I've had a few back and forths in the past with K Nordtvedt regarding Asian Y-DNA I. It's mostly I2 (specifically I2a2a-M223; found in Iran and Central Asia). This sample is negative for M223, M436 and M438.

    Any thoughts, ladies and gents? I'll provide the full 44 Y-STR results if requested/when I find time later.
    Last edited by DMXX; 02-08-2017 at 01:40 PM. Reason: Thread has changed subject

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    You're saying it's mostly M223 but it seems negative for M223?

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    Sorry if my wording was confusing:

    The majority of Central Asian (+Iranian) I is I2a2a-M223, both in this study and in earlier ones. However, this particular sample does not belong to I2a2a-M223, I2a2-M436 or even I2-M438.

    The authors included the following upstream I SNPs in their genotype panel:

    ... I-M258, I1-M253, I2-M438 ...
    By deduction, this sample has to be I*-M258. Which, I believe, is the first time that has been reported anywhere outside Europe.

    Grugni et al. 2012 reported a handful of IJ*-M429 in Iran. I haven't seen any detailing of Iranian I through STR's or SNP's to ascertain whether they're recent or prehistoric relics, potentially relating to the pre-Villabruna population.

    Impression: Wayward lineage ?source.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    Sorry if my wording was confusing:

    The majority of Central Asian (+Iranian) I is I2a2a-M223, both in this study and in earlier ones. However, this particular sample does not belong to I2a2a-M223, I2a2-M436 or even I2-M438.

    The authors included the following upstream I SNPs in their genotype panel:



    By deduction, this sample has to be I*-M258. Which, I believe, is the first time that has been reported anywhere outside Europe.

    Grugni et al. 2012 reported a handful of IJ*-M429 in Iran.

    Impression: Wayward lineage ?source.
    I remember that, IJ* was also found in one of the Vestonice samples IIRC. Looks like the Iranian plateau might prove very relevant to IJ's emergence and diversification, I'd certainly like to see more ancient data from Iran.
    מְכֹרֹתַיִךְ וּמֹלְדֹתַיִךְ מֵאֶרֶץ הַכְּנַעֲנִי אָבִיךְ הָאֱמֹרִי וְאִמֵּךְ חִתִּית
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    אֲרֵי יִצְרָא לִבָּא דַּאֲנָשָׁא בִּישׁ מִזְּעוּרֵיהּ
    בראשית פרק ח כא-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I remember that, IJ* was also found in one of the Vestonice samples IIRC.
    Right you are - Genetiker called it.

    There's two likely scenarios with this Afghan I* sample - Either it is a prehistoric and (literally) drifted offshoot of the pre-Villabruna population that existed further west, or it is a more recent export from the Eurasian steppes.

    All the Y-DNA I retrieved so far from the steppes has been I2a2a (L699+ in the Yamnaya Samara site, Genetiker also identifies Ukraine_HG1 as I2a2a-M223). We can reasonably determine that the I2a2a-M223 found in Central Asia (including Iran) probably has LNBA steppe origins... But not this I* outlier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    Right you are - Genetiker called it.

    There's two likely scenarios with this Afghan I* sample - Either it is a prehistoric and (literally) drifted offshoot of the pre-Villabruna population that existed further west, or it is a more recent export from the Eurasian steppes.

    All the Y-DNA I retrieved so far from the steppes has been I2a2a (L699+ in the Yamnaya Samara site, Genetiker also identifies Ukraine_HG1 as I2a2a-M223). We can reasonably determine that the I2a2a-M223 found in Central Asia (including Iran) probably has LNBA steppe origins... But not this I* outlier.
    The former scenario (pre-Villabruna) makes more sense to me right now, but we can't jump to conclusions just yet, especially considering the lack of ancient data from the region.
    מְכֹרֹתַיִךְ וּמֹלְדֹתַיִךְ מֵאֶרֶץ הַכְּנַעֲנִי אָבִיךְ הָאֱמֹרִי וְאִמֵּךְ חִתִּית
    יחזקאל פרק טז ג-

    אֲרֵי יִצְרָא לִבָּא דַּאֲנָשָׁא בִּישׁ מִזְּעוּרֵיהּ
    בראשית פרק ח כא-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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    We desperately would need a good article about NGS Y-DNA from Iran, the Caspian Sea, Central Asia, Eastern Anatolia, Northern Iraq but after two years nothing happened.
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    The most instructive piece of additional evidence to weigh either scenario against the other, for the time being, is STR haplotype comparisons. I have little familiarity with I haplotypes, so I'm hoping a more learned enthusiast would shed some light regarding how "typical" this sample looks relative to the more basal European I's that have been picked up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    Sorry if my wording was confusing:

    The majority of Central Asian (+Iranian) I is I2a2a-M223, both in this study and in earlier ones. However, this particular sample does not belong to I2a2a-M223, I2a2-M436 or even I2-M438.

    The authors included the following upstream I SNPs in their genotype panel:



    By deduction, this sample has to be I*-M258. Which, I believe, is the first time that has been reported anywhere outside Europe.

    Grugni et al. 2012 reported a handful of IJ*-M429 in Iran. I haven't seen any detailing of Iranian I through STR's or SNP's to ascertain whether they're recent or prehistoric relics, potentially relating to the pre-Villabruna population.

    Impression: Wayward lineage ?source.

    Id treat those results with caution, because they were non-reproducible
    I also recall another study with purported I* (based on limited SNP tests), but the STR profile looked like J or even G2

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    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    We desperately would need a good article about NGS Y-DNA from Iran, the Caspian Sea, Central Asia, Eastern Anatolia, Northern Iraq but after two years nothing happened.
    I'd like to see ancient data from all over Iraq, Syria and the Arabian peninsula for that matter, not just the northern parts of SW Asia.
    מְכֹרֹתַיִךְ וּמֹלְדֹתַיִךְ מֵאֶרֶץ הַכְּנַעֲנִי אָבִיךְ הָאֱמֹרִי וְאִמֵּךְ חִתִּית
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    בראשית פרק ח כא-


    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

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