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Thread: Is there a y-dna link between the Yamna culture and R1a?

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    Is there a y-dna link between the Yamna culture and R1a?

    I understand that nearly all known Yamna samples are R1b, so why do people mainly identify Yamna with R1a?
    There seem to be no signs of early Ukrainian/South Russian R1a. The earliest traces of R1a are Middle Eastern, and the earliest branches from there were North Western Europe (R1a1a1a), the Baltic (R1a1a1b1) and the Middle East (R1a1a1b2). Perhaps the first R1a group estimated likely to be of Ukrainian/South Russian origin is YP314, which yfull TMRCAs as only 2,400 ybp (long after the Yamna period ended).
    All the earliest R1a branches seem to have migrated West to East (R1a1a1a into Scandinavia, R1a1a1b1 into Russia, R1a1a1b2 into India) - the opposite direction to Yamna, which is said to have spread East to West into the Corded Ware Baltic regions.
    Any thoughts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by epp View Post
    There seem to be no signs of early Ukrainian/South Russian R1a.
    Genetiker decodes Ukraine_N1 (4519–4343 B.C.) to be R1a-M459*.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epp View Post
    I understand that nearly all known Yamna samples are R1b, so why do people mainly identify Yamna with R1a? . . .
    I have not heard of anybody doing that these days. They identify Corded Ware mainly with R1a.

    However, I do expect to see some R1a in Yamnaya, as well as some R1b-L51. No y-dna results from western Yamnaya have been published yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epp View Post
    I understand that nearly all known Yamna samples are R1b, so why do people mainly identify Yamna with R1a?
    There seem to be no signs of early Ukrainian/South Russian R1a. The earliest traces of R1a are Middle Eastern, and the earliest branches from there were North Western Europe (R1a1a1a), the Baltic (R1a1a1b1) and the Middle East (R1a1a1b2). Perhaps the first R1a group estimated likely to be of Ukrainian/South Russian origin is YP314, which yfull TMRCAs as only 2,400 ybp (long after the Yamna period ended).
    All the earliest R1a branches seem to have migrated West to East (R1a1a1a into Scandinavia, R1a1a1b1 into Russia, R1a1a1b2 into India) - the opposite direction to Yamna, which is said to have spread East to West into the Corded Ware Baltic regions.
    Any thoughts?
    Earliest R1a found yet was from Mesolithic Karelia which was EHG with basically zero traces of Middle Eastern ancestry. Also Dnieper–Donets was also R1a just like Khvalynsk which was both R1a and R1b. Yamnaya is irrelavant for R1a and was likely not PIE anymore. R1a is from pre-Yamnaya steppe cultures which were likely more diverse in different R1a/R1b lineages. Most of them died out when some clans became powerful and pushed out other steppe clans.

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    There was a leak, that one of the samples from Yamnaya, analyzed by Reich's lab, had R1a. The sample is however not yet published. So I will wait for next publication.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epp View Post
    The earliest traces of R1a are Middle Eastern
    I am not aware of any such findings. Could you please provide a reference for this?
    Also, the early diverged subclade of R1a named YP4141 (or R1a2) is found both in Europe (so far mostly in Western Europe) and in the Middle East. YP4141 is definitely most frequent in the Middle East, but this practically includes just one subclade named YP5018 with the relatively young TMRCA age of about 3000 years, so it could have been brought to this region quite recently, ie. in the historical times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epp View Post
    Perhaps the first R1a group estimated likely to be of Ukrainian/South Russian origin is YP314, which yfull TMRCAs as only 2,400 ybp (long after the Yamna period ended).
    I am wondering where this comes from. I definitely wouldn't say that the modern distribution of YP314 makes it much more likely to have originated in Ukraine. Actually, it seems that YP314 is less likely to be of Ukrainian origin than many of the closely related clades, like L1280 or Y2902 that, by contrast to YP314 (or to its parental clade S18681), are present not only among the Eastern and Western Slavs, but also among the Southern Slavs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epp View Post
    I understand that nearly all known Yamna samples are R1b, so why do people mainly identify Yamna with R1a?
    There seem to be no signs of early Ukrainian/South Russian R1a. The earliest traces of R1a are Middle Eastern, and the earliest branches from there were North Western Europe (R1a1a1a), the Baltic (R1a1a1b1) and the Middle East (R1a1a1b2). Perhaps the first R1a group estimated likely to be of Ukrainian/South Russian origin is YP314, which yfull TMRCAs as only 2,400 ybp (long after the Yamna period ended).
    All the earliest R1a branches seem to have migrated West to East (R1a1a1a into Scandinavia, R1a1a1b1 into Russia, R1a1a1b2 into India) - the opposite direction to Yamna, which is said to have spread East to West into the Corded Ware Baltic regions.
    Any thoughts?
    R1a is first attested in the ancient DNA record in far Northeastern Mesolithic Europe. Then also very likely in Neolithic Ukraine and certainly in Eneolithic Southern Russia. Not a single ancient Near Eastern sample belongs to R1a.

    Expect plenty of ancient R1a from all periods in the steppes north of the Black Sea.

    Don't expect any R1a in the Middle East until the Bronze Age at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by epp View Post
    ...
    There seem to be no signs of early Ukrainian/South Russian R1a. ?
    1000bc or older.
    Don/Tanais R1a
    http://www.ssc-ras.ru/files/files/So...Population.pdf

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    Thanks for all your many pieces of information!

    Parasar - the 1000 BC samples seem too recent to be Yamna, but are interesting nonetheless.

    Generalissimo - I haven't seen convincing evidence yet, although your expectations re- the Southern Steppes were probably similar to mine.

    Michal - your identification of L1280 & Y2902 as possible Ukrainian-origin subclades is interesting, not least because yfull estimates their TMRCAs to be 200-300 BC (very much post-Yamna). FTDNA's large R1a database has quite a few M417- samples that appear to be Middle Eastern (e.g. Iraqi, Yemeni and Jewish).

    Coldmountains - do you have references for the information you have given? (I agree, there might have been various R lineages in the Steppes. This was my guess for a current R1a point of origin, although (as you suggest) many (or perhaps all?) of these lineages died out. I cannot see evidence yet that they are the most recent common source of surviving R1a lineages.)

    Igmayka - Genetiker's "calls" are interesting if we can rely on them - I note the 4,500 BC Ukrainian apparently-M459* sample also had a positive call for a subclade of YP4887 (which yfull estimates only came into existence 363 ybp), so Genetiker's assessment doesn't seem assured. In fact, yfull estimates M459 itself to have a TMRCA of only 3,500 BC, and my view is that yfull generally overstates TMRCAs. Also, how easily is this squared with the FTDNA database, in which all East European samples appear to stem from M417+, and all M417- samples look Jewish and Arabian in origin?

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