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Thread: Living DNA - the mtDNA

  1. #1
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    Living DNA - the mtDNA

    Just wanted to discuss this often neglected subject of the mtDNA, and everybody's results, and finding out a bit more about the subclades everybody has got.

    Take my own subclade of J2a1a1a, almost nothing about this subclade on internet, and how it got to the UK, or where its geolocational frequency lies, I have spoken to people with this subclade, and their line hails from S Sweden, and Lebanon. there is lots and lots about the Haplogroup "J" but not much about the subclade itself.
    so here is my subclade, as you see even this description is very generic only about J.
    Attachment 13943

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  3. #2
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    ^^ My West Midlands ancestry ^^
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    Previously I had neither my Y or mtdna results. I have been given H7a. H is apparently the most common haplogroup in Europe, so I agree that some information on the subclades would be nice.

    Attachment 13945
    Some nice drivel about people in caves! (Or did they actually find remains of people from Haplogroup 'H' there, and were they from my subclade? If not, don't tell me about them!)

    Attachment 13946
    Map is pretty clear. Again this is where I feel more information on the subclades is needed. I can see from the phlogenetic tree that I am not HV so assume my ancestors travelled northwards. I'm not sure my ancestors would actually have gone as far as Finland though?

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  5. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgdavies@hotmail.com View Post
    Just wanted to discuss this often neglected subject of the mtDNA, and everybody's results, and finding out a bit more about the subclades everybody has got.

    Take my own subclade of J2a1a1a, almost nothing about this subclade on internet, and how it got to the UK, or where its geolocational frequency lies, I have spoken to people with this subclade, and their line hails from S Sweden, and Lebanon. there is lots and lots about the Haplogroup "J" but not much about the subclade itself.
    so here is my subclade, as you see even this description is very generic only about J.
    Attachment 13943
    No J in Paleolithic or Mesolithic Europe has been found yet . Plenty of J in Neolithic Europe, but not so much J2a1. There is a theory that J2a1 was present in pre-Neolithic Europe though, as it isn't reallly found much elsewhere.
    Rates of J2a1 are apparently highest in N.Germany and Denmark (5%) , Switzerland (3%) and England (2%).

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  7. #4
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    • 23andMe reported my mtDNA H6a1. WeGene and James Lick looking at the 23andMe data suggested H6a1a8.
    • FT-DNA Full MTDNA Sequence confirmed H6a1a8
    • Living DNA took it down to H6a1a


    Actually, I feel that the reports and histories given in the Motherline section of my report to be the most disappointing. I quite like the reports and histories in the autosomal section. Well done Living DNA. However, the mtDNA? It says that my ancestors "left the caves in 1100 BC". Er... is that a typo? Then the old Doggerland rubbish: "It is likely this is how your ancestors reached Britain and Ireland, by walking across the English Channel". Er... No! H6a1 has not been seen in any European ancient DNA previous to the Copper Age. It first turns up here in Yamna and Corded Ware Culture remains. It appears to be a Steppe pastoralist mtDNA. They would have got rather wet walking here. "Some of your ancestors inhabited caves on the border of Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire, where they carved outlines of animals.". No. Not unless they later moved to Central Asia, then returned during the Early Bronze Age. It goes on like this. Clearly the references are to Helen (H), rather than to H6a1a. Broad sweeping comments referring to H as a whole - a massive mt haplogroup.

    The coverage map is interesting and could have really been cool. However, although it doesn't say so, it looks as though it refers to the Haplogroup as a whole again. It doesn't say either way.

    It all could have been better, and more specific to H6a1a.
    yDNA: L1b2c L-SK1414 (Oxon/Berks at Generation 9)
    mtDNA: H6a1a8 (Norfolk at Generation 9)
    Hidden Content .

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  9. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Norfolk L-M20 View Post
    • 23andMe reported my mtDNA H6a1. WeGene and James Lick looking at the 23andMe data suggested H6a1a8.
    • FT-DNA Full MTDNA Sequence confirmed H6a1a8
    • Living DNA took it down to H6a1a


    Actually, I feel that the reports and histories given in the Motherline section of my report to be the most disappointing. I quite like the reports and histories in the autosomal section. Well done Living DNA. However, the mtDNA? It says that my ancestors "left the caves in 1100 BC". Er... is that a typo? Then the old Doggerland rubbish: "It is likely this is how your ancestors reached Britain and Ireland, by walking across the English Channel". Er... No! H6a1 has not been seen in any European ancient DNA previous to the Copper Age. It first turns up here in Yamna and Corded Ware Culture remains. It appears to be a Steppe pastoralist mtDNA. They would have got rather wet walking here. "Some of your ancestors inhabited caves on the border of Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire, where they carved outlines of animals.". No. Not unless they later moved to Central Asia, then returned during the Early Bronze Age. It goes on like this. Clearly the references are to Helen (H), rather than to H6a1a. Broad sweeping comments referring to H as a whole - a massive mt haplogroup.

    The coverage map is interesting and could have really been cool. However, although it doesn't say so, it looks as though it refers to the Haplogroup as a whole again. It doesn't say either way.

    It all could have been better, and more specific to H6a1a.
    DNA testing companies do like their storytelling ! H present in Britain at the time of Doggerland ? Pure speculation. If they were talking about U4 or U5 then fair enough.The description for H , and likely others too , sounds similar to something Bryan Sykes might have penned ten years ago. Perhaps one day there will be a service which fully integrates ancient DNA data, and modern mt frequencies, with every mt result. However it's the autosomal part of the analysis that is their USP and makes the test worth doing - just a shame about those haplogroup histories .....

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  11. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by angscoire View Post
    DNA testing companies do like their storytelling ! H present in Britain at the time of Doggerland ? Pure speculation. If they were talking about U4 or U5 then fair enough.The description for H , and likely others too , sounds similar to something Bryan Sykes might have penned ten years ago. Perhaps one day there will be a service which fully integrates ancient DNA data, and modern mt frequencies, with every mt result. However it's the autosomal part of the analysis that is their USP and makes the test worth doing - just a shame about those haplogroup histories .....
    To be fair, the other established DNA companies that I have tested with, have supplied similar out-dated, broad sweeping mtDNA histories. For anyone other than us enthusiasts, it would be fine. A great story to tell your family and friends - "My ancestors were in caves in Derbyshire! They drew cave paintings there - my ancestors!". It's a bit like that old mtDNA test that connected local families to Cheddar Man. Rubbish of course. It'll be fine for those people that think that a haplogroup "represents" their entire, or half of their biological ancestry. However, it would have been nice to see something better and more up to date. Some of the "Family Ancestry" and time line autosomal histories are actually quite good!
    yDNA: L1b2c L-SK1414 (Oxon/Berks at Generation 9)
    mtDNA: H6a1a8 (Norfolk at Generation 9)
    Hidden Content .

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  13. #7
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    For my own case, it's similar. U4b1a2 distributions are sourced as barebones U4 HVR-1, peaking in Kalash in an older paper. Ironically I think some downstream branches of U4b are present in Kalash (U4b1a3?), but it's doubtful that is the reference point they are using. The closest branch I've seen in aDNA is from Corded Ware U4b1b1.

    On the Y-side, they had R1b-Z220 peaking in Spain in the map, but upwards of 10% in Scotland is incorrect, so I suspect they are using DF27 as the reference point. I believe a value of 30-35% of DF27 in Spain is actually slightly understated.

    The mtDNA in my family is a little more straightforward.

    U4b1a2 - likely derived locally from hunter-gatherer women somewhere in northern Eurasia, including Europe and the steppes.
    father's I2 - no mtDNA I has been discovered in Europe until post-LBK, mostly via more recent aDNA, so I suspect it was brought in with PIE speakers, possibly from the Caucasus women as west Asians share some branches as well.
    Last edited by ADW_1981; 02-10-2017 at 04:32 PM.
    YDNA: R1b-Z220 (A7066+) (1800's Stepney, London(Bethnal Green), UK George Wood b. 1782
    maternal-grandfather YDNA: prob. I1 Gurr, George 1843, Feversham, Kent, England.
    maternal-grandmother YDNA: ? Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    maternal-ggrandfather YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    paternal-ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton mdka Ireland(?) < 1800s

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  15. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Norfolk L-M20 View Post
    To be fair, the other established DNA companies that I have tested with, have supplied similar out-dated, broad sweeping mtDNA histories. For anyone other than us enthusiasts, it would be fine. A great story to tell your family and friends - "My ancestors were in caves in Derbyshire! They drew cave paintings there - my ancestors!". It's a bit like that old mtDNA test that connected local families to Cheddar Man. Rubbish of course. It'll be fine for those people that think that a haplogroup "represents" their entire, or half of their biological ancestry. However, it would have been nice to see something better and more up to date. Some of the "Family Ancestry" and time line autosomal histories are actually quite good!
    I'm sure you could pen a suitable H6 history . For my own H7 , maybe something simple along the lines of ; 'H is the most common haplogroup in Europe . H7 is a fairly rare subgroup of H , maybe accounting for around 3% of all H. Its expansion within Europe is alleged to have occurred around 8,000 ybp (Behar et al 2012) . It first appears in the ancient DNA record with Baalberge Culture in Neolithic Germany . It has also been found in Minoan Crete and the Bronze Age Unetice Culture. Today H7 seems most frequent in Eastern Europe and the Near East . ' Job done !
    Last edited by angscoire; 02-10-2017 at 09:05 PM. Reason: none

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgdavies@hotmail.com View Post
    Just wanted to discuss this often neglected subject of the mtDNA, and everybody's results, and finding out a bit more about the subclades everybody has got.

    Take my own subclade of J2a1a1a, almost nothing about this subclade on internet, and how it got to the UK, or where its geolocational frequency lies, I have spoken to people with this subclade, and their line hails from S Sweden, and Lebanon. there is lots and lots about the Haplogroup "J" but not much about the subclade itself.
    so here is my subclade, as you see even this description is very generic only about J.
    Attachment 13943
    The Ian Logan site has results of people from published studies as well as a few 23andme contributors. Your subclade is at http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_..._sequences.htm

    All of them that have a location are north European but mostly Scandinavian. The Russian probably has Scandinavian ancestry too.

    One of them is JQ702950(British) Behar

    Behar is the Behar et al. study and JQ702950 is the sample ID.

    Here is the complete list of the samples
    13. EF657370 mtDNA224(Europe) Herrnstadt
    14. GU123013(Russia) Malyarchuk
    15. GU903270 FTDNA
    16. HM485691 FTDNA
    17. JQ702950(British) Behar
    18. JX152902(Denmark) Raule
    19. JX152918(Denmark) Raule
    20. JX153321(Denmark) Raule
    21. JX153353(Denmark) Raule
    22. JX153591(Finland) Raule
    23. JX153835(Finland) Raule
    24. JX154018(Denmark) Raule
    25. KF161316(Denmark) Li (INCOMPLETE)
    26. KF161416(Denmark) Li
    27. KF161658(Denmark) Li
    28. KF161985(Denmark) Li
    29. KF162800(Denmark) Li
    30. KF162912(Denmark) Li
    .. 23andme('Max'-1594)


    His site has a good number of results from the Middle East but not for your subclade. A 2012 study (which is a little old) shows upstream haplogroup J2a1a to be European

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  19. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandoR1b View Post
    The Ian Logan site has results of people from published studies as well as a few 23andme contributors. Your subclade is at http://www.ianlogan.co.uk/sequences_..._sequences.htm

    All of them that have a location are north European but mostly Scandinavian. The Russian probably has Scandinavian ancestry too.


    One of them is JQ702950(British) Behar

    Behar is the Behar et al. study and JQ702950 is the sample ID.

    Here is the complete list of the samples
    13. EF657370 mtDNA224(Europe) Herrnstadt
    14. GU123013(Russia) Malyarchuk
    15. GU903270 FTDNA
    16. HM485691 FTDNA
    17. JQ702950(British) Behar
    18. JX152902(Denmark) Raule
    19. JX152918(Denmark) Raule
    20. JX153321(Denmark) Raule
    21. JX153353(Denmark) Raule
    22. JX153591(Finland) Raule
    23. JX153835(Finland) Raule
    24. JX154018(Denmark) Raule
    25. KF161316(Denmark) Li (INCOMPLETE)
    26. KF161416(Denmark) Li
    27. KF161658(Denmark) Li
    28. KF161985(Denmark) Li
    29. KF162800(Denmark) Li
    30. KF162912(Denmark) Li
    .. 23andme('Max'-1594)


    His site has a good number of results from the Middle East but not for your subclade. A 2012 study (which is a little old) shows upstream haplogroup J2a1a to be European
    Thanks ArmandoR1b.... looks like both my y-dna and mtdna, are very odd for a Welshman...

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