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Thread: L20

  1. #1
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    L20

    This was started in a general thread and I'm not sure what the complete question is...
    Quote Originally Posted by Titus Valerius View Post
    Hi all!
    But where does L20+?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikewww View Post
    This was started in a general thread and I'm not sure what the complete question is...
    These are the 5 R-L20 on the Boattini’s paper. My friend probably wanted to ask something about this haplogroup in Italy, but, as Richard Rocca has said in another thread, they are a few amongst the R-U152 and it seems with a low variance:

    97 Como 13 24 14 10 11 15 12 12 12 13 13 29 18 15 19 12 15 12 23 R1b1b2a1b4c1-L20
    123 Brescia 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 14 13 30 18 15 19 12 15 12 23 R1b1b2a1b4c1-L20
    201 Vicenza 13 24 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 15 21 12 15 12 23 R1b1b2a1b4c1-L20
    558 Benevento 13 23 14 11 11 14 12 12 12 13 13 29 15 15 19 12 15 12 23 R1b1b2a1b4c1-L20
    487 L'Aquila 13 24 14 11 12 14 12 12 11 14 13 30 17 15 19 12 15 12 23 R1b1b2a1b4c1-L20

  3. #3
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    little diagram about L20 in Ftdna database with 111 Y DNA... and Bolgeri /Belgeri family

    Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor (Years)

    modal Belgieri 111 640 640 544 1376 1248 1248 1312 1216
    Belgieri Italy 640 111 704 736 1696 1568 1824 1760 1568
    Belgeri Italy 640 704 111 704 1760 1632 1760 1568 1632
    Bolgeri Italy 544 736 704 111 1440 1440 1632 1504 1376
    Petermann Switzerland 1376 1696 1760 1440 111 1632 2080 2144 1696
    Grassi Italy 1248 1568 1632 1440 1632 111 1824 1696 1888
    Dupuy France 1248 1824 1760 1632 2080 1824 111 1824 1632
    Fox England 1312 1760 1568 1504 2144 1696 1824 111 1760
    Woodruff England 1216 1568 1632 1376 1696 1888 1632 1760 111

    0-288 Years 320-608 Years 640-928 Years 960-1248 Years
    - Infinite allele mutation model is used
    - Average mutation rate varies: 0.0034 to 0.0034, from FTDNA derived rates
    - Values on the diagonal indicate number of markers tested
    - Probability is 85% that the TMRCA is no longer than indicated
    - Average generaton: 32 years
    Last edited by Bolgeris; 08-14-2013 at 05:36 PM.

  4. #4
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    I saw that in the project FTDNA U152 there are several L20 +.
    What is the maximum genetic distance between L20 +?
    When lived L20+ TMRCA ?
    If genetic distance is 20 steps TMRCA can be lived 1800-2100 years ago..
    Last edited by Alessio B. Bedini; 08-30-2013 at 02:56 PM.
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ 7664023 et al., Pandolfo Guidi, b. ~1515, Ostra Vetere, Marches, Italy
    Maternal: U5b1b*, Delicata Frascone, b. ~1740, Sora, southern Lazio, Italy

  5. #5
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Alessio B. Bedini View Post
    I saw that in the project FTDNA U152 there are several L20 +.
    What is the maximum genetic distance between L20 +?
    When lived L20+ TMRCA ?
    If genetic distance is 20 steps TMRCA can be lived 1800-2100 years ago..
    From ftdna U152 project..
    Matrix L20 derived 111 STR..
    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bwo1...GQ5/edit?pli=1

    The max genetic distance between Belgieri, Belgeri and Bolgeri is 12 / 111 STR..
    The medium from others L20+ is 34..
    May be L20 TMRCA lived 2500 years ago?!?

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Bolgeris For This Useful Post:

     Alessio B. Bedini (08-30-2013)

  7. #6
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    Thanks for your report. Looking at the table on the genetic distance of all the L20 + I noticed that this distance is very close to the distance between all the L2 +
    I believe that TMRCA of L20 + is not much too far from TMRCA of L2 +, maybe even 200-500 years.
    So if L2 + is originated 3000-4000 years ago, L20 + may have been born about 3000 years ago.

    For the place then I do not think it is in Italy. More likely, West Germany, in the Rhine Valley. From there they spread both to the south in northern Italy, and to the north in the British Isles.
    If the origin's place was in northern Italy certainly would spread at least in the regions of central Italy, while at the moment it seems to me there is none.
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ 7664023 et al., Pandolfo Guidi, b. ~1515, Ostra Vetere, Marches, Italy
    Maternal: U5b1b*, Delicata Frascone, b. ~1740, Sora, southern Lazio, Italy

  8. #7
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    Yes correct..
    Since the first discovery of the SNP L20 had noticed its spread, predominantly from Switzerland along the Rhine up to Belgium.
    see this map from Gilbert (FTdna U152 project):
    https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=U...5a8ff62f591caa
    and russian semargl.
    http://www.semargl.me/en/dna/ydna/map-snp/358/
    The fact that L20 is present also in south Italy.. in Benevento (Benevento the former Lombard duchy) and Abruzzo (ex Lombard duchy of Spoleto)--
    this should also suggest a Lombard origin for L20 + in Italy?

    By thinking about it ..

  9. #8
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    In my opinion the speech for L2 also applies to L20: born in Central Europe came to Italy at different times.
    Some perhaps came in Italy during the Iron Age while others came only in the late Middle Ages.
    To better understand when they came in Italy is necessary to assess the genetic distance: If this is too much they arrived in Italy earlier or at least the separation between the lines occurred much earlier
    What is the genetic distance of L20 on Benevento and Abruzzo from others?
    Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ 7664023 et al., Pandolfo Guidi, b. ~1515, Ostra Vetere, Marches, Italy
    Maternal: U5b1b*, Delicata Frascone, b. ~1740, Sora, southern Lazio, Italy

  10. #9
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    Hi all,
    my genetic distance from L20+ on Benevento is 6
    from L20+ on L' Aquila is 5
    there are mismatches on dys 390,439,,458,GATAH4, 456
    But my genetic distance from a Scottish L20+ is 1 ! In this case the only mismatch is on dys 456

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Titus Valerius For This Useful Post:

     Scarlet Ibis (08-31-2013)

  12. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titus Valerius View Post
    Hi all,
    my genetic distance from L20+ on Benevento is 6
    from L20+ on L' Aquila is 5
    there are mismatches on dys 390,439,,458,GATAH4, 456
    But my genetic distance from a Scottish L20+ is 1 ! In this case the only mismatch is on dys 456
    Ciao
    What is exactly the STR used from Boattini?
    I think the first 12 are the Ftdna 12 STR.. but others?
    Thank you .
    Grazie mille.
    Last edited by Bolgeris; 09-01-2013 at 04:30 PM.

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