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Thread: Ancient Eurasia K6 - Deducing Traces of Back to Africa Migrations

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by VytautusofAukstaitija View Post
    @NiloSaharan, thanks for that info!

    Do you have any idea where the WC African ancestry of Central Sudanics comes from? and do all Central Sudanics have it?

    Here's some crude nmonte runs:

    Central Sudanic has a significantly higher amount of West-African ancestry as expected.
     

    scaled, pen 0.001

    UG_Aringa (Central-Sudanic [P. Aunt]),
    fit: 2.249,
    Dinka: 72.5,
    Igbo: 17.5,
    MWI_Fingira_2500BP: 10

    UG_Kakwa (Eastern-Nilotic [Mother]),
    fit: 3.204,
    Dinka: 80,
    MWI_Fingira_2500BP: 12.5,
    Igbo: 7.5

    UG_CS/ES (Myself),
    fit: 2.4386,
    Dinka: 77.5,
    MWI_Fingira_2500BP: 11.67,
    Igbo: 10.83


    I was surprised at first to see the Igbo as the closest fit for WC African ancestry. It's not by a long-stretch but it's evident that the Niger-Congo pops furthest away from the Chad basin, the supposed epicenter of Central-Sudanic, have the worst fits -- with Gambians being the furthest:

     

    scaled, pen 0.001

    UG_Aringa (Central-Sudanic):


    fit: 2.249,
    Dinka: 72.5,
    Igbo: 17.5,
    MWI_Fingira_2500BP: 10

    fit: 2.3186,
    Dinka: 73.33,
    Yoruba: 16.67,
    MWI_Fingira_2500BP: 10

    fit: 2.3234,
    Dinka: 73.33,
    Mende_Sierra_Leone: 19.17,
    MWI_Fingira_2500BP: 7.5

    fit: 2.5097,
    Dinka: 73.33,
    Mandenka: 17.5,
    MWI_Fingira_2500BP: 9.17

    fit: 2.5841,
    Dinka: 73.33,
    Gambian: 18.33,
    MWI_Fingira_2500BP: 8.33


    It's worth noting, these runs don't take into account the embedded more ancient W-African affinity within nilotic pops -- I think that's the WC African affinity we were initially looking for.
    Dinka on it's own is ~15-30% West-African; maybe it's this affinity that's closer related to N\Westward Niger-Congo pops like the Mandenka and Gambians -- this shouldn't be conflated with more recent WA admixture like what we're seeing here for CS pops.

    Since horners are ~half Ancient-East-African("nilotic") but lack this ancient West-African layer, their lineage of AEA ancestors must've been quite restricted to Northeastern-Africa.


    ...until the day we get our hands on an ancient AEA sample
    Last edited by NiloSaharan; 06-22-2019 at 01:09 PM.
    PuntDNAL K8
    Population: Hidden Content 46.16, Ubangian_Congo 9.56, W_Benue_Congo 24.21, Eastern_HG 2.09, E_Benue_Congo 12.94, Omotic 5.05
    Single Population Sharing: Hidden Content 14.17, Hidden Content 17.26, South_Sudanese 25.21, South_Sudan_Anuak 25.65, Cameroon_Mada 28.57, Ethiopian_Gumuz 33.91, Kenyan_Maasai 36.07, Kenyan_Bantu 38.05, Chad_Kaba 40.04, DRC_Hema 42.08, Kenyan_Luhya 46.64

    The truth is not for all men, but only for those who seek it - Hidden Content

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by NiloSaharan View Post
    I hate to take this personal, I really shouldn't be posting without consent but this demonstration is too relevant : )

    It goes to shows how intertwined one's language and ethnicity can play out, this is a photo of my mother and her nephew (my first-cousin) whose father is Munyoro:

     


    I hope to get him and his siblings tested one day, it would be interesting to compare the Cushitic-like affinity


    My very proud Kakwa speaking mother looks indistinguishably West-African (likely due to CS admixture?), whereas my Bantu-speaking half-Bunyoro cousin's partial Cushitic ancestry makes him pass more-so for an Erythrean speaker -- IMO anyway




    I have no immediate reference on the topic but I find it hard to believe the Baganda kingdom was initiated as recent as the Luo migration. Maybe just in name?
    From prior Bantu migrations, wasn't there highly organized pops in this region? ...I recall reading about highly advanced Iron working from sometime back
    Buganda was formed around 14th century A.D. before it was clan led leadership. Typical to many Bantu speaking groups. Each clan had a leader(chief), what the first king did was uniting all clans to form kingdom of Buganda.

    Yes, of course before Buganda, the region was united under one empire. Very centralized monarchy. When Bachwezi dynasty gave up. Luo speaking Babiito took over.

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  5. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Espoir View Post
    Buganda was formed around 14th century A.D. before it was clan led leadership. Typical to many Bantu speaking groups. Each clan had a leader(chief), what the first king did was uniting all clans to form kingdom of Buganda.

    Yes, of course before Buganda, the region was united under one empire. Very centralized monarchy. When Bachwezi dynasty gave up. Luo speaking Babiito took over.
    - We're really going off topic here : )

    Fascinating! -- that never dawned on me... in all honesty, I guess I was too ignorant to look that up in detail.

    Isn't it ironic though, the Luo sparked these monarchies yet don't have an imposing monarchy of their own -- correct me if I'm mistaken

    When I think of official kingdoms in the Great Lakes Region, it's always of Bantu speakers (Baganda, Toro, Basoga...). It impressed me that they had standing armies, ministers, extensive trade routes to the coast etc...
    PuntDNAL K8
    Population: Hidden Content 46.16, Ubangian_Congo 9.56, W_Benue_Congo 24.21, Eastern_HG 2.09, E_Benue_Congo 12.94, Omotic 5.05
    Single Population Sharing: Hidden Content 14.17, Hidden Content 17.26, South_Sudanese 25.21, South_Sudan_Anuak 25.65, Cameroon_Mada 28.57, Ethiopian_Gumuz 33.91, Kenyan_Maasai 36.07, Kenyan_Bantu 38.05, Chad_Kaba 40.04, DRC_Hema 42.08, Kenyan_Luhya 46.64

    The truth is not for all men, but only for those who seek it - Hidden Content

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     VytautusofAukstaitija (06-22-2019)

  7. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by NiloSaharan View Post
    - We're really going off topic here : )

    Fascinating! -- that never dawned on me... in all honesty, I guess I was too ignorant to look that up in detail.

    Isn't it ironic though, the Luo sparked these monarchies yet don't have an imposing monarchy of their own -- correct me if I'm mistaken

    When I think of official kingdoms in the Great Lakes Region, it's always of Bantu speakers (Baganda, Toro, Basoga...). It impressed me that they had standing armies, ministers, extensive trade routes to the coast etc...
    The Shilluk were similar. Post-Islamic state formation was taking place in the upper Nile and Jezira in the same broad time period as we see with the immigration of an elite castes of Nilotic herder/fishers into both the Great Lakes and another group from the Jezira/Bahr-el Arab/Jebel area into newly conquered and settled Arab lands in former Alodia, and the formation of tributary imperial states like the Funj. I think a Nilotic extraction for the Funj royalty is likely, especially seeing similarities with the Shilluk kingship, which I believe has parallels in other Luo peoples. Perhaps a pan-Luo monarchical system may be the basis in which the Luo seemed so well practiced in state formation (outside of the Kavirondo Luo). It may be that the invading Luo like the Babiito were less Kavirondo Luo (heavily Bantu) than ancestral Kavirondo (more Nilotic, or pure Nilotic). Also, all Luo ethnic groups living wholly outside of South Sudan except for the Kavirondo Luo live fairly close and many border Buganda. It can be any of them, or several of them in fact, or an ancestral and less differentiated group (or all of the above) of these extra-South Sudanese Luos that conquered the (likely) previously Inter-Lacustrine Pastoralist ruled kingdoms of the Great Lakes, which they then established themselves as ruling dynasts.

    Concerning those nmonte runs: I am taken aback at how "Nilotic" Central Sudanics are, it's basically 3/4ths of their ancestry. I assumed they were closer to 50% Nilotic-like seeing some older oracles. And I was completely wrong about the Zaghawa. The model I actually saw had them peaking in a Saharan Sudanic component that was found in them and Furs, Masalits, and Tebou. Some west/central African migration must have happened in the central Sahara post-Nilo-Saharan exodus to account for this extra-west/central African admixture not present in other Nilo-Saharans.

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  9. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by NiloSaharan View Post
    - We're really going off topic here : )

    Fascinating! -- that never dawned on me... in all honesty, I guess I was too ignorant to look that up in detail.

    Isn't it ironic though, the Luo sparked these monarchies yet don't have an imposing monarchy of their own -- correct me if I'm mistaken

    When I think of official kingdoms in the Great Lakes Region, it's always of Bantu speakers (Baganda, Toro, Basoga...). It impressed me that they had standing armies, ministers, extensive trade routes to the coast etc...
    Right! We are way off topic!

    As far as I know, there’s was no Luo Kingdom in UGanda. What happened is, Luos pretty much took over a falling apart empire, adopted the language and I guess system of leadership of the Chwezi.
    History says that by the time of Luo invasion, chwezi has internal conflicts alongside droughts and plagues that were devastating their cattle. They didn’t even fight.

    Yeah! All kingdoms were of Bantu speaking people. Very sophiscated organization.Colonizers couldn’t believe it, hence, creating “the Hamitic theory”. All those monarchies were located between lake Victoria, Kyoga, Albert, Kivu, and Tanganyika. Beyond those areas, no organized kingdoms were there(in the great lakes region)

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  11. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by VytautusofAukstaitija View Post
    The Shilluk were similar. Post-Islamic state formation was taking place in the upper Nile and Jezira in the same broad time period as we see with the immigration of an elite castes of Nilotic herder/fishers into both the Great Lakes and another group from the Jezira/Bahr-el Arab/Jebel area into newly conquered and settled Arab lands in former Alodia, and the formation of tributary imperial states like the Funj. I think a Nilotic extraction for the Funj royalty is likely, especially seeing similarities with the Shilluk kingship, which I believe has parallels in other Luo peoples. Perhaps a pan-Luo monarchical system may be the basis in which the Luo seemed so well practiced in state formation (outside of the Kavirondo Luo). It may be that the invading Luo like the Babiito were less Kavirondo Luo (heavily Bantu) than ancestral Kavirondo (more Nilotic, or pure Nilotic). Also, all Luo ethnic groups living wholly outside of South Sudan except for the Kavirondo Luo live fairly close and many border Buganda. It can be any of them, or several of them in fact, or an ancestral and less differentiated group (or all of the above) of these extra-South Sudanese Luos that conquered the (likely) previously Inter-Lacustrine Pastoralist ruled kingdoms of the Great Lakes, which they then established themselves as ruling dynasts.
    Interesting, I haven't come across the term "Kavirondo" Luo -- you got me catching up on a lot of pre-history here.

    The Luo expansion deserves a paper of it's own, they've gotta be the most aggressive Nilotic expansion in East-Africa, much more so than Eastern-Nilotic speakers and Central-Sudanics -- somebody call-up Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by VytautusofAukstaitija View Post
    Concerning those nmonte runs: I am taken aback at how "Nilotic" Central Sudanics are, it's basically 3/4ths of their ancestry. I assumed they were closer to 50% Nilotic-like seeing some older oracles. And I was completely wrong about the Zaghawa. The model I actually saw had them peaking in a Saharan Sudanic component that was found in them and Furs, Masalits, and Tebou. Some west/central African migration must have happened in the central Sahara post-Nilo-Saharan exodus to account for this extra-west/central African admixture not present in other Nilo-Saharans.
    You're correct, they're AEA (nilotic-like) ancestry is more or less ~50% -- you gotta discount the ~20% West-African affinity in the Dinka.

    Central-Sudanics like the Lugbara in the West-Nile region of Uganda have been extremely endogmatic, so much so that it's at times hard to tease their non-AEA affinity in admixture runs.
    It's basically Ugandan CSs Mbuti/HG-like ancestry ("Ubangian" -- best modeled as "MWI_Fingira_2500BP") that pulls them away from the more "Proto Central-Sudanic" ethnic groups like the Bulala in Chad (minus their likely recent minor Eurasian ancestry) -- more on that here



    PuntDNAL K8 results, "UG_Aringa" is one of my paternal CS aunts:
     


    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Chad_Bulala 13.09
    2 Alur 15.58
    3 Souh_Sudan_Anuak 25.79
    4 South_Sudanese 25.83
    5 Cameroon_Mada 27.74
    6 Ethiopian_Gumuz 34.44
    7 Kenyan_Maasai 35.11
    8 Kenyan_Bantu 36.04
    9 DRC_Hema 39.36
    10 Chad_Kaba 39.54
    11 Kenyan_Luhya 43.57
    12 SA_Nguni 46.12
    13 SA_Pedi 47.17
    14 SA_Bantu 47.83
    15 DRC_Kongo 48.54
    16 SA_Sotho/Tswana 49.34
    17 Cameroon_Bamoun 49.37
    18 Mali_Mandinka 49.46
    19 Cameroon_Fang 50.42
    20 SA_Xhosa 50.47

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 58.4% Souh_Sudan_Anuak + 41.6% Kenyan_Bantu @ 3.61
    2 66.4% Souh_Sudan_Anuak + 33.6% Cameroon_Fang @ 4.51
    3 63.3% Alur + 36.7% South_Sudanese @ 5.21
    4 63.5% Alur + 36.5% Souh_Sudan_Anuak @ 5.78
    5 65.8% Souh_Sudan_Anuak + 34.2% DRC_Kongo @ 6.07
    6 58.6% South_Sudanese + 41.4% Kenyan_Bantu @ 6.26
    7 65.2% Souh_Sudan_Anuak + 34.8% SA_Pedi @ 6.37
    8 63.3% South_Sudanese + 36.7% Kenyan_Luhya @ 6.44
    9 66.3% Souh_Sudan_Anuak + 33.7% Cameroon_Bamoun @ 6.62
    10 64.7% Souh_Sudan_Anuak + 35.3% SA_Nguni @ 6.96
    11 63.6% Souh_Sudan_Anuak + 36.4% Kenyan_Luhya @ 7.82
    12 71.7% Alur + 28.3% Ethiopian_Gumuz @ 8.31
    13 67.1% South_Sudanese + 32.9% Cameroon_Fang @ 8.4
    14 65.6% South_Sudanese + 34.4% SA_Pedi @ 8.69
    15 57.1% Chad_Bulala + 42.9% Alur @ 8.86
    16 68% Souh_Sudan_Anuak + 32% Nigeria_Hausa @ 9.3
    17 65.2% South_Sudanese + 34.8% SA_Nguni @ 9.38
    18 66.9% Souh_Sudan_Anuak + 33.1% SA_Sotho/Tswana @ 9.61
    19 61.6% Souh_Sudan_Anuak + 38.4% Chad_Kaba @ 9.65
    20 66.2% Souh_Sudan_Anuak + 33.8% SA_Bantu @ 9.7


    It's not the best fit but considering the distance and the fact their migration was at least >3kya, it's quite impressive to see the Bulala as a better fit than the Alur who are literraly an adjacent ethnic group in the West-Nile region of Uganda.


    Quote Originally Posted by Espoir View Post
    Right! We are way off topic!

    As far as I know, there’s was no Luo Kingdom in UGanda. What happened is, Luos pretty much took over a falling apart empire, adopted the language and I guess system of leadership of the Chwezi.
    History says that by the time of Luo invasion, chwezi has internal conflicts alongside droughts and plagues that were devastating their cattle. They didn’t even fight.
    Wow, good timing on their part

    Quote Originally Posted by Espoir View Post
    Yeah! All kingdoms were of Bantu speaking people. Very sophiscated organization.Colonizers couldn’t believe it, hence, creating “the Hamitic theory”. All those monarchies were located between lake Victoria, Kyoga, Albert, Kivu, and Tanganyika. Beyond those areas, no organized kingdoms were there(in the great lakes region)
    That's a prime reason I cringe whenever I hear the term "Hamitic", especially when applied to Ugandan Eastern-Nilotic speakers... I still hear older folk use the outdated term "Nilo-Hamites" when referring to Nilitoc tribes like the Kakwa and Karamajong.
    Unfortunately, I think many Ugandans still don't get the underlying racial thesis of the term.
    Last edited by NiloSaharan; 06-23-2019 at 10:40 PM.
    PuntDNAL K8
    Population: Hidden Content 46.16, Ubangian_Congo 9.56, W_Benue_Congo 24.21, Eastern_HG 2.09, E_Benue_Congo 12.94, Omotic 5.05
    Single Population Sharing: Hidden Content 14.17, Hidden Content 17.26, South_Sudanese 25.21, South_Sudan_Anuak 25.65, Cameroon_Mada 28.57, Ethiopian_Gumuz 33.91, Kenyan_Maasai 36.07, Kenyan_Bantu 38.05, Chad_Kaba 40.04, DRC_Hema 42.08, Kenyan_Luhya 46.64

    The truth is not for all men, but only for those who seek it - Hidden Content

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