Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 43

Thread: Surprising J1-M267 result!

  1. #21
    Registered Users
    Posts
    3,550
    Sex
    Location
    USA
    Ethnicity
    Italo-Iberian
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152+L2+FGC10543
    mtDNA (M)
    H4a1-T152C!

    United States of America Italy 1861-1946 Spain
    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    YSC76 is one of L858's most successful sub-branches, like most major branches of YSC234 its TMRCA is roughly 5,000 years old. Like King said, some claim that YSC76 (or even YSC234) arose in Mesopotamia, but this is unlikely for a plethora of reasons, first because Mesopotamia was a demographic sink during the late Chalcolithic-EBA period, second because YSC234's distribution and phylogeny strongly suggest an association with the earliest Semitic-speaking communities and finally because J1's absence in Neolithic, Chalcolithic and Bronze Age remains from the Zagros and Armenia (regions often singled out as J1's cradle moreover) does a big disfavour to this theory.

    Considering the fact that we have a J1-Z2324 (xYSC235) sample from 'Ayn Ghazal (I1705) dating back to the EBA IV/MBA II A period we can surmise that the Levant once was a J1(-P58?) diversity hotspot, I myself expected this sample to be YSC76 considering its relatively "young" age.
    If not these locations, then what is your best education guess?
    Paternal: R1b-U152 >> L2 >> FGC10543, Pietro della Rocca, b. 1559, Agira, Sicily, Italy
    Maternal: H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b. ~1864, Galicia, Spain
    Mother's Paternal: J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b. 1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
    Father's Maternal: T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
    Paternal Great (x3) Grandfather: R1b-U106 >> L48 >> CTS2509, Filippo Ensabella, b.~1836, Agira, Sicily, Italy

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to R.Rocca For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (03-28-2017),  Power77 (03-28-2017),  Táltos (03-29-2017)

  3. #22
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    3,981
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Jewish & British
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1-Z18271
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c5
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-U152
    mtDNA (P)
    U7a5

    Israel Israel Jerusalem United Kingdom England Scotland Isle of Man
    Quote Originally Posted by R.Rocca View Post
    If not these locations, then what is your best education guess?
    As far as YSC76 (as well as YSC234 and probably even Z2324) is of concern the Levant would be my best guess, specifically the southern Levant (the more arid areas around the Timna' valley, which were lusher during the Chalcolithic). If not these areas, then northernmost parts of the Levant (congruent with the Hatay, Adana and Osmaniye provinces of modern-day Turkey). Mesopotamia remains a possibility of course, I just do not find it convincing at this stage, since there's no data pointing towards Mesopotamia.

    Regarding J1 as a whole or, if we want to be more precise, YSC65, I think the Caucasus, the Iranian plateau and the Gulf refuge (AKA "Gulf Oasis") are the main contenders, perhaps even Arabia (who knows). I might well be wrong on this though, so don't take my word for it (technically-speaking, nothing prevents J1 from showing up in the Indian subcontinent, Central Asia or in Europe during the UP).
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 03-28-2017 at 02:37 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

  4. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Agamemnon For This Useful Post:

     Power77 (03-28-2017),  R.Rocca (03-28-2017),  Táltos (03-29-2017)

  5. #23
    Registered Users
    Posts
    423
    Sex
    Location
    Da Great White North
    Ethnicity
    Jewish (Ashk.+Seph.)
    Nationality
    Israeli and Canuck
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-M44
    mtDNA (M)
    H1
    Y-DNA (M)
    J1-P58
    mtDNA (P)
    ?

    Canada Israel Israel Jerusalem Spain Lithuania United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    As far as YSC76 (as well as YSC234 and probably even Z2324) is of concern the Levant would be my best guess, specifically the southern Levant (the more arid areas around the Timna' valley, which were lusher during the Chalcolithic). If not these areas, then northernmost parts of the Levant (congruent with the Hatay, Adana and Osmaniye provinces of modern-day Turkey). Mesopotamia remains a possibility of course, I just do not find it convincing at this stage, since there's no data pointing towards Mesopotamia.

    Regarding J1 as a whole or, if we want to be more precise, YSC65, I think the Caucasus, the Iranian plateau and the Gulf refuge (AKA "Gulf Oasis") are the main contenders, perhaps even Arabia (who knows). I might well be wrong on this though, so don't take my word for it (technically-speaking, nothing prevents J1 from showing up in the Indian subcontinent, Central Asia or in Europe during the UP).

    Do you think J1 can still be found in Natufian remains?
    “The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.”
    ― Socrates


    “The unexamined life is not worth living.”
    ― Socrates

    “There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
    ― Socrates

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Power77 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (03-28-2017)

  7. #24
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    3,981
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Jewish & British
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1-Z18271
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c5
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-U152
    mtDNA (P)
    U7a5

    Israel Israel Jerusalem United Kingdom England Scotland Isle of Man
    Quote Originally Posted by Power77 View Post
    Do you think J1 can still be found in Natufian remains?
    I sincerely doubt that, in fact I never seriously expected J1 to show up in Natufian remains.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to Agamemnon For This Useful Post:

     Power77 (03-28-2017)

  9. #25
    Registered Users
    Posts
    423
    Sex
    Location
    Da Great White North
    Ethnicity
    Jewish (Ashk.+Seph.)
    Nationality
    Israeli and Canuck
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-M44
    mtDNA (M)
    H1
    Y-DNA (M)
    J1-P58
    mtDNA (P)
    ?

    Canada Israel Israel Jerusalem Spain Lithuania United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    I sincerely doubt that, in fact I never seriously expected J1 to show up in Natufian remains.
    I don't see why would it be be impossible, especially if we consider the fact that the Natufians already carried West Eurasian mtDNA lineages such as J and H.
    “The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.”
    ― Socrates


    “The unexamined life is not worth living.”
    ― Socrates

    “There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
    ― Socrates

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to Power77 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (03-28-2017)

  11. #26
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    3,981
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Jewish & British
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1-Z18271
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c5
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-U152
    mtDNA (P)
    U7a5

    Israel Israel Jerusalem United Kingdom England Scotland Isle of Man
    Quote Originally Posted by Power77 View Post
    I don't see why would it be be impossible, especially if we consider the fact that the Natufians already carried West Eurasian mtDNA lineages such as J and H.
    Erm, the only mtDNA lineage found in the Natufians so far IIRC is N1b, not J or H. Same thing for the PPNB samples from Jordan and Israel, no J and no H. Look, I don't think finding J1 in a Natufian sample is impossible, it is just very unlikely, if J1 does show up it'll probably be some sort of outlier (perhaps from the northernmost parts of the Natufian horizon), a dead end much like the two Natufian samples that carried haplogroup CT.
    Last edited by Agamemnon; 03-28-2017 at 03:31 PM.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Agamemnon For This Useful Post:

     palamede (04-15-2017),  Power77 (03-28-2017)

  13. #27
    Registered Users
    Posts
    423
    Sex
    Location
    Da Great White North
    Ethnicity
    Jewish (Ashk.+Seph.)
    Nationality
    Israeli and Canuck
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-M44
    mtDNA (M)
    H1
    Y-DNA (M)
    J1-P58
    mtDNA (P)
    ?

    Canada Israel Israel Jerusalem Spain Lithuania United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    Erm, the only mtDNA lineage found in the Natufians so far IIRC is N1b, not J or H. Same thing for the PPNB samples from Jordan and Israel, no J and no H. Look, I don't think finding J1 in a Natufian sample is impossible, it is just very unlikely, if J1 does show up it'll probably be some sort of outlier (perhaps from the northernmost parts of the Natufian horizon), a dead end much like the two Natufian samples that carried haplogroup CT.
    Well, a certain Megalophias (in the thread below) claims that the Natufians carried mtDNA hgs J, V, H32, and R0a alongside N1b:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...-000-3-400-BP)
    “The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.”
    ― Socrates


    “The unexamined life is not worth living.”
    ― Socrates

    “There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
    ― Socrates

  14. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Power77 For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (03-28-2017),  palamede (04-15-2017),  R.Rocca (03-28-2017)

  15. #28
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    3,981
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Jewish & British
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1-Z18271
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c5
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-U152
    mtDNA (P)
    U7a5

    Israel Israel Jerusalem United Kingdom England Scotland Isle of Man
    Quote Originally Posted by Power77 View Post
    Well, the thread below claims that the Natufians carried mtDNA hgs J, V H32, and R0a alongside N1b:

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...-000-3-400-BP)
    My bad, I'd totally forgotten about that. Still, mtDNA haplogroups J and H are far more common in Anatolia_Neolithic-derived populations, so I doubt we can say this suggests J1 was present.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Agamemnon For This Useful Post:

     Power77 (03-28-2017)

  17. #29
    Registered Users
    Posts
    423
    Sex
    Location
    Da Great White North
    Ethnicity
    Jewish (Ashk.+Seph.)
    Nationality
    Israeli and Canuck
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-M44
    mtDNA (M)
    H1
    Y-DNA (M)
    J1-P58
    mtDNA (P)
    ?

    Canada Israel Israel Jerusalem Spain Lithuania United States of America
    Quote Originally Posted by Agamemnon View Post
    My bad, I'd totally forgotten about that. Still, mtDNA haplogroups J and H are far more common in Anatolia_Neolithic-derived populations, so I doubt we can say this suggests J1 was present.
    Of course, it is possible that those Natufian samples with mtDNA hgs J, V, H32 and R0a were not "ethnic Natufians" but rather "Neolithic Anatolian" visitors and/or merchants.
    “The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.”
    ― Socrates


    “The unexamined life is not worth living.”
    ― Socrates

    “There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
    ― Socrates

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to Power77 For This Useful Post:

     Targum (03-28-2017)

  19. #30
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    3,981
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Jewish & British
    Y-DNA (P)
    J1-Z18271
    mtDNA (M)
    J1c5
    Y-DNA (M)
    R1b-U152
    mtDNA (P)
    U7a5

    Israel Israel Jerusalem United Kingdom England Scotland Isle of Man
    Quote Originally Posted by Power77 View Post
    Of course, it is possible that those Natufian samples with mtDNA hgs J, V, H32 and R0a were not "ethnic Natufians" but rather "Neolithic Anatolian" visitors and/or merchants.
    IMO the presence of several of the Natufian mtDNA lineages in Anatolia_Neolithic as well as in Iran_Neolithic hints at some sort of association with BE.
    ᾽Άλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ᾽ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσιν:
    κρύβδην, μηδ᾽ ἀναφανδά, φίλην ἐς πατρίδα γαῖαν
    νῆα κατισχέμεναι: ἐπεὶ οὐκέτι πιστὰ γυναιξίν.


    -Αγαμέμνων; H Οδύσσεια, Ραψωδία λ

  20. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Agamemnon For This Useful Post:

     Awale (03-31-2017),  Power77 (03-28-2017),  Targum (03-28-2017)

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. J1-M267 Superclade Panel
    By Táltos in forum YSEQ
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 07-03-2016, 10:51 AM
  2. Was ZS3128 in the original J1-M267 SNP Pack?
    By lgmayka in forum J1-M267
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 01-09-2016, 09:08 PM
  3. Surprising Pale pigmentation in Mesolithic Motala HGs
    By Krefter in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 104
    Last Post: 03-25-2015, 05:37 AM
  4. J1-M267 diversity in Portugal
    By RCO in forum J1-M267
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 06-27-2014, 05:30 PM
  5. Surprising Discoveries From the Indus Civilization
    By Jean M in forum Archaeology (Prehistory)
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 05-23-2013, 12:39 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •