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Thread: Z2103 in ancient DNA

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    Z2103 in ancient DNA

    I don't know that this is the oldest tested example, but a new paper out today locates an Early Sarmatian (7th to 5th century BCE) example of Z2103. Discussion of the paper has its own thread, I posted a comment on it, but it occurs to me that Z2103 guys might want to have their own chat.
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post217469

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    I0575 is a line of Bashkir?

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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    I don't know that this is the oldest tested example, but a new paper out today locates an Early Sarmatian (7th to 5th century BCE) example of Z2103. Discussion of the paper has its own thread, I posted a comment on it, but it occurs to me that Z2103 guys might want to have their own chat.
    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...l=1#post217469
    5th or 6th century BCE hardly qualifies as the oldest R1b-Z2103 haplotypes. https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background
    Quote Originally Posted by lgmayka View Post
    A preliminary report from Vladimir Tagankin of YFull indicates that
    I0563 is R-S23201*
    I0575 is roughly R-Y21707* (but A12363-)
    I0577 is roughly R-YP1456* (but Y29558-)
    IS2 is Q-L332*
    This paper confirms that R1b-KMS67 has been roaming the Eurasian steppe for a long time. Today, R1b-KMS67 is found in the Bashkir population. Starting to see R1b-KMS67 Iraq although they are A12363+.
    R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2109>KMS67
    Last edited by Joe B; 03-03-2017 at 05:44 PM. Reason: A12363 info
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mis View Post
    I0575 is a line of Bashkir?
    The sample is Sarmatian and older than Bashkir or Turkic language. Either some of the Iranic speakers were Z2103 to begin with, or the lineage is a remnant of an earlier IE speaker that was absorbed by the far more common R1a-Z93 lineages.
    YDNA: R1b-BY50830 Stepney, London, UK George Wood b. 1782 English <-> Bavarian cluster
    m gf YDNA: ?? Gurr, James ~1740, Smarden, Kent, England.
    m gm YDNA: R1b-P311+ Beech, John Richard b. 1780, Lewes, England
    m ggf YDNA R1b-U106 Thomas, Edward b 1854, Sittingbourne, Kent
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-Z17901. Gould, John Somerset England 1800s.
    p ggf YDNA: R1b-L48. Scott, William Hamilton Ireland(?) 1800s

    other:
    Turner: R-U152
    Welch: early 1800s E-M84 Kent, England.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    5th or 6th century BCE hardly qualifies as the oldest R1b-Z2103 haplotypes. https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background
    OK. But the other SNP they identified in the sample, S20902/Z8130, doesn't appear (to me) to be named on the elaborate chart in that project. The mutation is at 18383837, C to T. YBrowse lists it but calls it something bad, like "not qualified;" it seems to be in the P6_Gap area. Maybe that's an extinct Z2103 line, or just a recurrent SNP -- whatever. This Sarmatian group is in the Ural River watershed, looks like it's on the Chagan or a nearby tributary -- next oblast (large administrative region) to the east of Samara oblast, where a bunch of much earlier samples were found.

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    Quote Originally Posted by razyn View Post
    OK. But the other SNP they identified in the sample, S20902/Z8130, doesn't appear (to me) to be named on the elaborate chart in that project. The mutation is at 18383837, C to T. YBrowse lists it but calls it something bad, like "not qualified;" it seems to be in the P6_Gap area. Maybe that's an extinct Z2103 line, or just a recurrent SNP -- whatever. This Sarmatian group is in the Ural River watershed, looks like it's on the Chagan or a nearby tributary -- next oblast (large administrative region) to the east of Samara oblast, where a bunch of much earlier samples were found.
    S20902/Z8130 or 18383837, C to T is on the same phylogenetic level as Z2103. I just confirmed that on YFull. They gave S20902/Z8130 (18383837, C to T) 5 stars for my sample.
    Got to believe that the authors of this paper had access to the genomes of all these individuals.
    “Individual I0575 (Sarmatian) belonged to haplogroup R1b1a2a2, and was thus related to the dominant Ychromosome lineage of the Yamnaya (Pit Grave) males from Samara37 (~3000BCE).”
    Last edited by Joe B; 03-03-2017 at 08:12 PM. Reason: replaced gnomes with genomes. smal difference. pun intended.
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

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    The R1b-KMS67 Phylogenetic Tree has been updated to include the I0575 (Sarmatian) iron age sample. There is certainly is an interesting star pattern emanating from the R1b-Z2108, CTS1842/Z2109 node that YFull estimates is 6100 ybp. Not that different from the 6200 formed, 6100 TMRCA for the R1b-Z2103 haplogroup. The R1b-KMS67 Phylogenetic Tree can be found at the R1b Basal Subclades project. https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background Second graphic down.
    Thanks again smal.
    Last edited by Joe B; 03-05-2017 at 08:25 PM.
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe B View Post
    The R1b-KMS67 Phylogenetic Tree has been updated to include the I0575 (Sarmatian) iron age sample. There is certainly is an interesting star pattern emanating from the R1b-Z2108, CTS1842/Z2109 node that YFull estimates is 6100 ybp. Not that different from the 6200 formed, 6100 TMRCA for the R1b-Z2103 haplogroup.
    I don't think those dates are accurate. There are umpteen mutations between nodes with the same TMRCA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    I don't think those dates are accurate. There are umpteen mutations between nodes with the same TMRCA.
    No doubt the YFull age estimates are just that, estimates. The estimate is actually from the R1b-Z2110/CTS7822 level. What are the mutations between nodes that you are seeing? Both the R1b Basal Subclades phylogenetic tree and YFull are in agreement on the phylogeny.
    YFull has four branches under Z2108, Z2109/CTS1843, the R1b Basal Subclades project has one more. This looks like a star pattern with only two SNPs at that level. I'm open to other interpretations or descriptions.


    PHP Code:
    YFull
    R
    -Z2108 Z2109/CTS1843 Z2108
    .    R-Z2108*
    .    
    R-Y20993 Y20993 KMS88 KMS62+5 SNPs
         R
    -Y14512 Y14511 Y14512 Y14515+9 SNPs
    .    R-Z2110 S12460 Z2110/CTS7822 S17864 
    PHP Code:
    R1b Basal Subclades project tree
    Z2109
    /CTS1843Z2108
         CTS310
    CTS6292L147.144 SNPs
         SK2087
    Y:7745011 (A/T)
         
    KMS67A12348
         CTS3937
    /M9805PF6018Y14414Y14415Y14416Y14420Y14421Y14422Y14423Y14511Y14512Y14513Y14514Y145154 SNPs
         CTS7822
    /Z2110S17864S12460 
    YFull R1b-M269>L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Y14512>Y20971>Y22199, ISOGG R1b1a1a2a2c1b Y14416, FTDNA R-M64

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    I wasn't doubting the strong expansion at Z2108 level (and more generally around Z2103 and its subclades) but the way that L23>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>Z2110 is compressed into the span of a century rather than spread out over a millennium or so.

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