DF19 (P312>DF19) & Subclades L644, Z302, etc.

[TigerMW]

DF19 is another branch of P312 that is parallel to U152, L21, DF27 and L238. This tree chart shows where it fits in.
http://tinyurl.com/R1b-P312-Tree

DF19 doesn't get much attention so I'm opening up this thread for it. It is definitely nothing to sneeze at, though, and even has it's own SNP based lineages starting to unfold, Z302 and L644 being the first.

I found these quotes on WFN from Goldenhind from 2011 and 2013.

The same people who identified Z196 in the data of the 1000 Genomes Project have found another SNP below P312 which is independent of all other SNPs currently known there: it has been named DF19. It was found in three P312* individuals- two from Britain and one from central Europe (nfd). They estimate about 3 to 11 percent of P312(XL21,U152,L176.2) will be positive for it. FTDNA is already offering testing for it, and a number of orders have been placed for it. However all but one from France have surnames from the British Isles, so I am expecting a repeat of the scenario with L21, where the pundits try to assign an origin for it in the British Isles, based on the early testing results. We need some testing from those with continental ancestry. I believe DF19 wasn't found in any of the 1000 Genomes individuals of Iberian ancestry, so it may be primarily nothern European.
...
Two out of three of the 1000 Genomes samples in which DF19 was initially found were from Britain, so it seems unlikely that it will be primarily continental. However I hope the continental presence will be sufficient to prevent some of the absurd positions taken L21 was first discovered.

Here are the DF19+ confirmed folks that I know of in our DNA projects.

fB1536	Bodamer	DF19+ L644-	pd19- uas	Germany
f121522	Grant		DF19+ L644-	pd19- uas	Scotland, Grampian, Banffshire, Kirkmichael, Strathavon
f222038	Gunn	DF19+	pd19- uas	zzzUnkOrigin
f76830	Martin		DF19+ L644-	pd19- uas	Ireland, Connacht, Co. Sligo, Carrickglass (Geevagh)
f128845	Merrill	DF19+	pd19- uas	England, West Midlands, Warwickshire
f139938	Reichel		DF19+	pd19- uas	Germany
fN46732	Van Gestel	DF19+	pd19- uas	Netherlands, Noord-Brabant, Berlicum
f228727	Zapotoczny	DF19+	pd19- uas	Poland
f155152	Gardner	DF19+ L644- Z302- L719-	pd19-1010	Ireland, Ulster, Co. Down,
f182243	Holland	DF19+ L644-	pd19-1010	England, South East, Buckinghamshire, Waddesdon
fN43634	Faulconer	DF19+ L644- Z302- L1199- 4c	pd19-1011	England, South East, Sussex
f202649	Findley	DF19+ L644-	pd19-1011	zzzUnkOrigin
f185462	Gordon	L1200+	pd19-1199-A	zzzUnkOrigin
f157462	Phillips	L1200+	pd19-1199-A	Scotland, Grampian, Aberdeenshire, Slains
f230076	Ranney	L1200+	pd19-1199-A	Scotland
f93184	Ranney	L1200+ L1063+	pd19-1199-A	Scotland
f112728	Renny	L1200+	pd19-1199-A	Scotland
f93670	Stiles	L1199+ L1200-	pd19-1199-A	England
fN11543	Persson(Kalmar)	DF19+ L644- Z302-	pd19-1423	Sweden, Kalmar län
f8585	Fletcher		DF19+	pd19-1423-A	zzzUnkOrigin
fN15110	Henrotte	DF19+ L644- Z302- L1199- L719-	pd19-1523	Belgium, Wallonia, Liège, Bassenge, Glons)
f173353	Munday	L719+ L147.3- L253-	pd19-1523	England, South East, Buckinghamshire
f95901	Aucock	L644+	pd19-1523-644- uas	England, South East, East Sussex, Willington
f87210	Follis	L644+	pd19-1523-644- uas	Ireland, Ulster, Co. Cavan
fE13932	zzzUnknown	L644+	pd19-1523-644- uas	Germany, Rhineland-Palatinate
f55699	Andrew	R1b-P312>DF19>L644+	L644+	pd19-1523-644-A	Scotland
fE4870	Marwede	L644+	pd19-1523-644-A	Germany, Lower Saxony, Celle, Hermannsburg
f86044	Verelst	L644+ L1063+	pd19-1523-644-B	Belgium, Antwerp, Lier
f249457	White	L644+	pd19-1523-644-B	Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone
f181628	Sutherland	L644+	pd19-1523-644-C	Scotland, Highland, Caithness, Wick
f48438	Wetmore	L644+	pd19-1523-644-C	England
f27045	White	L644+ P25RecLOH	pd19-1523-644-C	Ireland, Connacht, Co. Sligo, Drumcliff
f197215	Mugford		DF19+	pd19-1523-A	England, South West, Devonshire, Bideford
f202404	JonesL644-	pd19-1523-C	England
f96908	Miller	DF19+ L644- Z302- L719-	pd19-1523-D	Germany
fN74432	Mouer	DF19+ L644-	pd19-1523-D	Germany, Rhineland-Palatinate
f208772	Müller	DF19+	pd19-1523-D	Germany
f199000	SwanDF19+ L644- Z302- L1199-	pd19-1523-D	England
f148046	Goulait 	DF19+ L644- Z302-	pd19-1523-E	France
f70159	Miller	DF19+ L644-	pd19-1523-E	zzzUnkOrigin
f196999	zzzUnknown	DF19+ L644- Z302- L1199- L719-	pd19-1523-E	Czech Republic
f180696	Roberts	Z302+	pd19-302- uas	Ireland, Munster, Co. Cork, Ballymodan
f214701	Chevalier	Z302+	pd19-302-1012	France
f166103	Garrett	Z302+	pd19-302-1012	Ireland
f190419	Rose	Z302+	pd19-302-1012	Scotland, Grampian, Morayshire, Forres

[TigerMW]

Wim V is a key advocate for DF19. He thinks there are DF19+ folks to be found in the Netherlands and Belgium. This was a direct email but it was sent out to multiple people and does not appear to be anything controversial or confidential so I'll quote from it.

...
here's the reply I got from the researchers in Leuven, who are working on the large collection of Flemish / Brabant male DNA samples, and who recently published the Larmuseau et al paper.

They're already looking into a further experimental SNP-dissection for the P312 subclades that hadn't been tested yet, including DF19! Apparently only 10 of their 84 samples that remained P312* have the typical off-modal value DYS385b = 15, so my modest estimate would be that about 15 of those 84 samples may turn out to be DF19+ in the end (because in our dataset about 2/3 of all DF19+ samples have this value), unless there's a regional tendency for DF19+ samples to deviate more frequently from this off-modal value. Either way we should find out in the (hopefully near) future!

----- Forwarded Message ----- Maarten Larmuseau

...
We are indeed busy with updating the 'scientific' phylogeny of the R1b-lineage based on whole genome sequencing data. We have planned a further SNP-dissection for our R1b-samples from Flanders and North Brabant. As such we will be able quite soon to publish the data you are requesting.

To answer your question about the motifs in our R-P312* samples: Only 10 out of 84 samples have DYS385b = 15; but no one has DYS576 <= 17 or DYS458 = 16 (as you also can see in our data published in www.yhrd.org). I hope this information can give you already some ideas about the occurrence of certain sub-haplogroups in Flanders. Of course we have to note that we never look to these repeat numbers to make predictions about certain sub-haplogroups as this is absolutely not consistent.

Side note on predicting DF27: DF19 does not look to be very southern European. It could impact the percentage of P312+ U152- L21- in northern Europe that ends up being DF27+. In other words, DF19 could be big enough to reduce the expected percentage of DF27+ out of those who haven't tested for it yet, at least in England and NW Europe. The jury is out, but it is possible that additional DF19 STR signatures will be found in NW Europe.

[R.Rocca]

Wim V is a key advocate for DF19. He thinks there are DF19+ folks to be found in the Netherlands and Belgium. This was a direct email but it was sent out to multiple people and does not appear to be anything controversial or confidential so I'll quote from it.


----- Forwarded Message ----- Maarten Larmuseau


Side note on predicting DF27: DF19 does not look to be very southern European. It could impact the percentage of P312+ U152- L21- in northern Europe that ends up being DF27+. In other words, DF19 could be big enough to reduce the expected percentage of DF27+ out of those who haven't tested for it yet, at least in England and NW Europe. The jury is out, but it is possible that additional DF19 STR signatures will be found in NW Europe.

So I think our "guestimate" we discussed for the split between DF19+, DF27* and P312** is probably off by a percentage point or so, but nothing earth shattering.

[TigerMW]

I had an inquiry from the Grant's and I found a whole series of Grant's that are great DF19 suspects so I'm adding them to the spreadsheet. Hopefully, a few more of them test for DF19 and join the P312 project, assuming they come up DF19+.

[RCAndrew]

So, have they come up with any new SNP's to test for being us DF19+/L644+?

[alan]

I am late to this topic but am actually impressed by the number of Europeans in the list, largely from Germany, France and the Low Countries. What jumps out at me strongly is the non-native Gaelic nature of almost all the Scottish and Irish names. They all seem to be names associated with high Medieval settlers often put under the catch-all 'Normans' bracket. I think this clade was a very late arriver there. I get the impression that this clade's isles history could be related to historic period settlers including Normans. I dont know before that. I suspect a Germanic link maybe with the Franks.

DF19 is another branch of P312 that is parallel to U152, L21, DF27 and L238. This tree chart shows where it fits in.
http://tinyurl.com/R1b-P312-Tree

DF19 doesn't get much attention so I'm opening up this thread for it. It is definitely nothing to sneeze at, though, and even has it's own SNP based lineages starting to unfold, Z302 and L644 being the first.

I found these quotes on WFN from Goldenhind from 2011 and 2013.


Here are the DF19+ confirmed folks that I know of in our DNA projects.

fB1536	Bodamer	DF19+ L644-	pd19- uas	Germany
f121522	Grant		DF19+ L644-	pd19- uas	Scotland, Grampian, Banffshire, Kirkmichael, Strathavon
f222038	Gunn	DF19+	pd19- uas	zzzUnkOrigin
f76830	Martin		DF19+ L644-	pd19- uas	Ireland, Connacht, Co. Sligo, Carrickglass (Geevagh)
f128845	Merrill	DF19+	pd19- uas	England, West Midlands, Warwickshire
f139938	Reichel		DF19+	pd19- uas	Germany
fN46732	Van Gestel	DF19+	pd19- uas	Netherlands, Noord-Brabant, Berlicum
f228727	Zapotoczny	DF19+	pd19- uas	Poland
f155152	Gardner	DF19+ L644- Z302- L719-	pd19-1010	Ireland, Ulster, Co. Down,
f182243	Holland	DF19+ L644-	pd19-1010	England, South East, Buckinghamshire, Waddesdon
fN43634	Faulconer	DF19+ L644- Z302- L1199- 4c	pd19-1011	England, South East, Sussex
f202649	Findley	DF19+ L644-	pd19-1011	zzzUnkOrigin
f185462	Gordon	L1200+	pd19-1199-A	zzzUnkOrigin
f157462	Phillips	L1200+	pd19-1199-A	Scotland, Grampian, Aberdeenshire, Slains
f230076	Ranney	L1200+	pd19-1199-A	Scotland
f93184	Ranney	L1200+ L1063+	pd19-1199-A	Scotland
f112728	Renny	L1200+	pd19-1199-A	Scotland
f93670	Stiles	L1199+ L1200-	pd19-1199-A	England
fN11543	Persson(Kalmar)	DF19+ L644- Z302-	pd19-1423	Sweden, Kalmar län
f8585	Fletcher		DF19+	pd19-1423-A	zzzUnkOrigin
fN15110	Henrotte	DF19+ L644- Z302- L1199- L719-	pd19-1523	Belgium, Wallonia, Liège, Bassenge, Glons)
f173353	Munday	L719+ L147.3- L253-	pd19-1523	England, South East, Buckinghamshire
f95901	Aucock	L644+	pd19-1523-644- uas	England, South East, East Sussex, Willington
f87210	Follis	L644+	pd19-1523-644- uas	Ireland, Ulster, Co. Cavan
fE13932	zzzUnknown	L644+	pd19-1523-644- uas	Germany, Rhineland-Palatinate
f55699	Andrew	R1b-P312>DF19>L644+	L644+	pd19-1523-644-A	Scotland
fE4870	Marwede	L644+	pd19-1523-644-A	Germany, Lower Saxony, Celle, Hermannsburg
f86044	Verelst	L644+ L1063+	pd19-1523-644-B	Belgium, Antwerp, Lier
f249457	White	L644+	pd19-1523-644-B	Ireland, Ulster, Co. Tyrone
f181628	Sutherland	L644+	pd19-1523-644-C	Scotland, Highland, Caithness, Wick
f48438	Wetmore	L644+	pd19-1523-644-C	England
f27045	White	L644+ P25RecLOH	pd19-1523-644-C	Ireland, Connacht, Co. Sligo, Drumcliff
f197215	Mugford		DF19+	pd19-1523-A	England, South West, Devonshire, Bideford
f202404	JonesL644-	pd19-1523-C	England
f96908	Miller	DF19+ L644- Z302- L719-	pd19-1523-D	Germany
fN74432	Mouer	DF19+ L644-	pd19-1523-D	Germany, Rhineland-Palatinate
f208772	Müller	DF19+	pd19-1523-D	Germany
f199000	SwanDF19+ L644- Z302- L1199-	pd19-1523-D	England
f148046	Goulait 	DF19+ L644- Z302-	pd19-1523-E	France
f70159	Miller	DF19+ L644-	pd19-1523-E	zzzUnkOrigin
f196999	zzzUnknown	DF19+ L644- Z302- L1199- L719-	pd19-1523-E	Czech Republic
f180696	Roberts	Z302+	pd19-302- uas	Ireland, Munster, Co. Cork, Ballymodan
f214701	Chevalier	Z302+	pd19-302-1012	France
f166103	Garrett	Z302+	pd19-302-1012	Ireland
f190419	Rose	Z302+	pd19-302-1012	Scotland, Grampian, Morayshire, Forres

[Dubhthach]

I see we have a new DF88+ result in the Ireland project. Martin (76830), he's confirmed as DF19+, DF88+, L644-

DF88 from what I read is above L644. Not sure what its' status is with regards to other DF19 subclades.

-Paul
(DF41+)

[marosjor]

Ranny #93184 in the Ireland yDNA Project is also DF19+, DF88+, L644-.

Regards,
Margaret

[TigerMW]

Wim is kind of the guru of DF19. DF88 might unite a couple of DF19's subclades. It looks like Wim thinks it is of some kind of Germanic origin.

What we already know is that DF88 is positioned downstream from DF19 and upstream from L644, but its position relative to L719 and Z302 remains to be determined. As an educated guess I would predict that DF88 originated in northern Europe (Scandinavia or northern Germany) about 2000 years ago, or perhaps a bit earlier than that.It would have been distributed beyond these regions by Germanic peoples, and by e.g. their Viking and Norman descendants in later centuries. Let's wait and see what more we can learn when all pending test results come in

! http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/R.../messages/6129

[TigerMW]

Here is another update from George R, the chief SNP testing advocate for DF19 testing.. (He's great!)

L644, L719, L1199/L1200 were all found first in WTY (Walk-through-the-Y) Testing: L644+ (White), L719+ (Munday), L1199+/L1200+ (Ranney).

I suspect we will also find more SNPs below DF88+, parallel and maybe even above the known DF19+ subclades: L644, L719, L1199/L1200

Our DF19+ group is now about 60 members, plus many more identified (including the Scottish Clan Grant Chief's line ~ three already confirmed, all FTDNA Clan Grant Project Admins/Co-Admins, for this huge surname group).

Our DF19+ YDNA tree has also grown (see proposed ISOGG update, three e-mails below). We are just waiting on one L719+ result before I submit it.

It appears that Z302+ and DF88+ occurred shortly after DF19+ given their huge diversity of STR markers: YDNA67/111. It will be interesting to see if we find anyone who has both DF88- and Z302-

Of the 31 members testing DF88, our Z302+ came out DF88- (as expected), and 15 are DF88+ (now only 15 more test results are pending).

Another 25 are covered by others who have already tested for their subclades. Only 4 DF19+ members of P312+ project have yet to submit a test for DF88, who are not covered by others, so we will have great coverage for DF88+, to help date it.

Denmark or just below, along the North Coast of Germany is where we now believe DF19, DF88 and Z302 may have arisen (where our Ancestral Fathers were born), which explains why we have many with Norman names or Ancestry (Danish Viking + Frank/Celt) and people from Normandy in both DF88 & Z302 groups, as well as our Swede.