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Thread: Indo-Aryan Linguistic Tree

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reza View Post
    So I understood probably 90pc of that surprisingly. As you say though, regular chatgaya speakers like some family friends, speak much faster and I struggle to understand.

    That newsclip interestingly was heavily persianised. Insani hoq vs manobadhikar etc. Where do they draw a literary standard register from for rohingyas? Whilst spoken sylheti, chatgaya etc are more persianised than shuddho bangla, I still find it odd that they use such terms like 'estemal, hukomat, elan, behtar moqa' in the reporting, almost as its fashioned on urdu news over what is admittedly a sanskritised shuddho bangla.

    I find the diglossia in our dialects in Bangladesh very interesting. I would easily use words like awlad, nek amal, kamyabi etc in slightly religious terms but not in the more day to day speech. Perhaps they're drawing on that for their literary equivalent.

    Chakma I didn't realise was drawn from Bangla! The assamese I understood to some degree, but only by slightly zoning out. There are some pronunciation similarities to sylheti.

    Well, my mom told me that Chatgaiya apparently borrowed a lot of old Urdu phrases into the vocabulary, and since it's a port city, there's probably more Arabic/Persian words because of that (just like it has Portuguese words). The Rohingya language is probably drawn somewhere from Maundgaw in Northern Arakan. It has similarities to Chittagonian spoken in Cox's Bazar, where they speak slowly like Rohingyas do, and the speech seems more "tana" (টানা).

    Yeah, I find some of the words interesting as well. Though, my native language is regular Bengali, and I picked Chittagonian up because my mom used to speak in it with her family members, and interestingly, most of my maternal family uses words like "noon", "kuri", "didi" etc that Muslims from other parts of East Bengal wouldn't use, which is interesting in it self as well.

    Technically, I understand all of the "bengali-Assamese" languages, with the most difficulty in Rajbangshi/North Bengal language + Chakma/Bishnupriya Manipuri. Lol, I think I understand Asamiya better than those tbh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin View Post
    Well, my mom told me that Chatgaiya apparently borrowed a lot of old Urdu phrases into the vocabulary, and since it's a port city, there's probably more Arabic/Persian words because of that (just like it has Portuguese words). The Rohingya language is probably drawn somewhere from Maundgaw in Northern Arakan. It has similarities to Chittagonian spoken in Cox's Bazar, where they speak slowly like Rohingyas do, and the speech seems more "tana" (টানা).

    Yeah, I find some of the words interesting as well. Though, my native language is regular Bengali, and I picked Chittagonian up because my mom used to speak in it with her family members, and interestingly, most of my maternal family uses words like "noon", "kuri", "didi" etc that Muslims from other parts of East Bengal wouldn't use, which is interesting in it self as well.

    Technically, I understand all of the "bengali-Assamese" languages, with the most difficulty in Rajbangshi/North Bengal language + Chakma/Bishnupriya Manipuri. Lol, I think I understand Asamiya better than those tbh.
    Interesting, I think one of the users redifflal commented once before about the regional vs religious identity differences in vocab. I've always thought of it more as a generalisation, often an urban vs rural difference, and that the east vs west bengal dialectal differences probably outweighed the fewer differences between muslim vs hindu. Your family's use of noon, kuri etc may well reflect the fact that such differences are not entirely down communal lines. I've noticed a similar thing with kaka vs chacha, the former being more liberally used in rural speech.

    There is so much diversity in the various dialects on a subregional level itself, I wish my grasp of literary Bangla was up to scratch, I'm sure there's much work published in Bangla only that I'd love to get a handle on. The dobhasi puthi literature is interesting from a local development point of view.

    One thing that I've always found interesting is our use of gender with third person pronouns in Sylheti, which doesn't exist in shuddho Bangla. I imagine the same exists in Chatgaya? We'd use 'he/tare/tar' for he and 'tai/taire/tair' for she, as opposed to the non specific, e, o, she, ini and uni in Bangla. Did it exist once in Bangla and got lost, only to be kept in the more peripheral dialects?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reza View Post
    One thing that I've always found interesting is our use of gender with third person pronouns in Sylheti, which doesn't exist in shuddho Bangla. I imagine the same exists in Chatgaya? We'd use 'he/tare/tar' for he and 'tai/taire/tair' for she, as opposed to the non specific, e, o, she, ini and uni in Bangla. Did it exist once in Bangla and got lost, only to be kept in the more peripheral dialects?
    There is this article by Kazanas which refers to the absense of feminine gender in Hittite and how it has been linked to being archaic/PIE. I dont know how relevant it is to the query you have posed, but none the less it is interesting if Bangla lost it or never had it to begin with.

    Quoted from N.Kazanas
    Almost all IEnists agree that Hittite is probably the tongue which as a dialect of PIE was the first to split away as its speakers moved away to a distant region. This, of course, will not hold if the urheimat is taken to be N-E Anatolia, south of Caucasus. If this area is our starting point, then Hittite and Armenian moved minimally.

    Hittite, then, to put it differently, allegedly contains the most archaic features that are closest to PIE. One of these features is the absence of the feminine gender. This of course is ridiculous because since we have no PIE texts we can’t know for certain that PIE itself had no feminines. But because Hittite does not have this, it is assumed that PIE did not have it and therefore this becomes an archaic feature! It is not difficult to see how absurd this kind of circuitous thinking is.
    Link to the full article.
    http://indiafacts.org/fallacies-proto-indo-european-2/

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    Quote Originally Posted by homosapien View Post
    There is this article by Kazanas which refers to the absense of feminine gender in Hittite and how it has been linked to being archaic/PIE. I dont know how relevant it is to the query you have posed, but none the less it is interesting if Bangla lost it or never had it to begin with.



    Link to the full article.
    http://indiafacts.org/fallacies-proto-indo-european-2/
    Yeah Bengali doesn't have any gender at all for nouns/verbs unlike say Hindi/Urdu and some other Indo-Aryan languages. It's much more convenient.

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    That is a surprising input. Do you know of any study or book which details out how the so called Indo-Aryan family split into all the extant languages in India. And does the PIE language change/development theory holds up to that split or change, so we might also understand what were the proto languages for each language.

    Because even though all the languages in India are under one family it is difficult for folks from one language to understand another language 100%, and that 100% goes lower as the distance between the languages expand within the country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by homosapien View Post
    That is a surprising input. Do you know of any study or book which details out how the so called Indo-Aryan family split into all the extant languages in India. And does the PIE language change/development theory holds up to that split or change, so we might also understand what were the proto languages for each language.

    Because even though all the languages in India are under one family it is difficult for folks from one language to understand another language 100%, and that 100% goes lower as the distance between the languages expand within the country.
    This is true, but there is a dialect continuum throughout the country. For e.g., say you learn Bengali, you can easily learn Oriya or Assamese afterwards, same thing would be say if you learned Punjabi and you want to learn Hindi/Urdu. This is even true for non-standard dialects, for e.g. speakers of eastern Bengali dialects will have much of an easier time understanding Assamese, while speakers of western Bengali ones would enjoy the same benefits for Oriya.

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Ind...ryan-languages

    The book, "The Indo-Aryan Languages" by Colin P. Masica is a good place to start for this group of languages btw.

    Overall, I think there is much similarity between IE languages, some of which may not be easily obvious, and I think the theory of IE languages as a whole is correct. Though, the correct restructuring of the PIE language will help us learn more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kulin View Post
    This is true, but there is a dialect continuum throughout the country. For e.g., say you learn Bengali, you can easily learn Oriya or Assamese afterwards, same thing would be say if you learned Punjabi and you want to learn Hindi/Urdu. This is even true for non-standard dialects, for e.g. speakers of eastern Bengali dialects will have much of an easier time understanding Assamese, while speakers of western Bengali ones would enjoy the same benefits for Oriya.

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Ind...ryan-languages

    The book, "The Indo-Aryan Languages" by Colin P. Masica is a good place to start for this group of languages btw.

    Overall, I think there is much similarity between IE languages, some of which may not be easily obvious, and I think the theory of IE languages as a whole is correct. Though, the correct restructuring of the PIE language will help us learn more.
    I totally agree about the similarity, however only point I am unable to understand is, under this PIE model India did not have any language or it became extinct because of the incoming of a group of nomadic pastoralist, who were able to impose their language on more than 70% of the sub continent without leaving any trace of their earlier language. Despite they themselves being much advanced than the nomadic pastoralist and totally outnumbered because of the sheer size of the population.

    Most of the studies on this topic start from the invasion/migration as the starting point, so we are no really uncovering what the real situation was like back then, or neither any model explains if the migration/invasion did really happen what was the kind of economy and culture back then that they were able to spread their language through out, and neither any change in culture is observed after the said invasion/migration dates.

    So PIE is ok to an extent, but the foundation and the dating which it states still lacks a lot of explanation as to the current distribution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by homosapien View Post
    I totally agree about the similarity, however only point I am unable to understand is, under this PIE model India did not have any language or it became extinct because of the incoming of a group of nomadic pastoralist...
    There clearly were other languages spoken in India before the arrival of Indic. There still are non-IE language families in India. The question of the language spoken by the people of the IVC has been discussed somewhere on the thread http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...nto-South-Asia

    The language of the IVC has been commonly supposed to be Dravidian, but a plausible alternative is that it was a now lost language, many words from which were borrowed into Sanskrit. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substr...Vedic_language

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    Quote Originally Posted by homosapien View Post
    ...it became extinct because of the incoming of a group of nomadic pastoralist, who were able to impose their language on more than 70% of the sub continent without leaving any trace of their earlier language. Despite they themselves being much advanced than the nomadic pastoralist and totally outnumbered because of the sheer size of the population.
    What languages are now spoken in Anatolia, Sumeria, and Egypt - ancient centres of advanced civilization and large populations?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jean M View Post
    There clearly were other languages spoken in India before the arrival of Indic. There still are non-IE language families in India. The question of the language spoken by the people of the IVC has been discussed somewhere on the thread http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...nto-South-Asia

    The language of the IVC has been commonly supposed to be Dravidian, but a plausible alternative is that it was a now lost language, many words from which were borrowed into Sanskrit. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substr...Vedic_language
    IVC extended from the very North to Central and West India based on the recent excavations. And exactly those areas only speak IE with the extension to East. And hydronomy as well attests to the same. And more so in the same areas we see continuity of culture from the IVC times. In that scenario how did the old language get lost. Its just seems like an un-understandable hypothesis. Unless there is some evidence to the contrary.

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