L21* (the real deal) (L21+ DF13- DF63-)

[TigerMW]

I need to start up a thread on this. Hopefully it is not redundant. I see have a potential new member.

Great news! N90495 Passmore is DF13-! Our assumptions were correct.

[rms2]

I mentioned Passmore over in the DF63 thread when his DF13- result first came in. He has a DF63 test underway but no result yet. Is he expected to go DF63-?

He lists an mdka from Devon, which will make him the most westerly of either L21* or DF63+, whichever way he goes, I believe.

[TigerMW]

N90495 Passmore fits with an STR signature I call X1363-219 so the chances may be he is really DF63+. However, that signature is pretty loose and has wide GDs so it is not for sure.

That leaves the following as the true L21* people.

f37201	Berry	L21+ Z290+ DF13- DF63- L69- L144- L195- 3c1g	X13- uas	England, Yorkshire and Humber, West Yorkshire, Almondbury Huddersfield
f25304	Maddox	L21+ DF13- DF63- L144-	X13- uas	France
f26883	Tupper	L21+ DF13- DF63-	X13- uas	England, South East, West Sussex, Bury
fN49494	(Wildes)	L21+ DF13- DF63-	X13- uas	zzzUnkOrigin
f8814   Blancett	L21+ DF13- DF63- L144- L195-	X13-1011	zzzUnkOrigin
f236395	Bishop	L21+ DF13- DF63-	X13-1313	England
fN80403	Bishop	L21+ Z290+ DF13- DF63- Z2542-	X13-1313	England, London
f94428	Meadows	L21+ Z290+ DF13- DF63- L144-	X13-1313	UK

If we choose f94428 Meadows to represent the X13-1313 variety, the modal for these L21* folks have a GD=4 from the L21 modal @67.

The GDs between themselves as individuals generally range up to 30 @67. The GDs between each to the L21 modal range from 8 to 18 @67.

[TigerMW]

I think we've found some new L21** folks, a Davis family. This group below has a pretty strong STR signature with L21** Maddox.

I'm calling it variety X13-131411 with these off-modals: 385=13,14 426=11 439<=11 458>=17 576<-17 557<-17 (464=14,14,15,17)

f25304 Maddox R1b-P312>L21** L21+ DF13- DF63- L144-
f226438 Maddox zzL21suspect
f117433 Davis zzL21suspect
f178565 Davis zzL21suspect
f36001 Davis zzL21suspect
f15580 Davis zzL21suspect
fN82291 Davis zzL21suspect
f52253 Davis zzL21suspect
f47238 Davis zzL21suspect

They have some differences too, but with GD's in the 8-9 range at 67 these guys look like good suspects

[RobertCasey]

We really need one L21+, DF13- and DF63- submission to test via the Full Genomes test. We currently have three DF13** testers but need a L21** test in order to sort out pre-DF13 SNPs from post-DF13 SNPs. L21** is probably a much smaller group than DF13** but we do not want to DF13 testers to be testing DF13 novel SNPs if they are really pre-DF13 in origin. There is a P312** submission in the testing queue as well but this is not a very good substitute for a L21** tester. Having a P312** tester will help sort out novel SNPs for any L21** tester and we have three DF13** testers as well. Here are the L21 submissions in the queue for the Full Genomes test:

DF13* 186947 Edgecombe
DF13* N55408 Smith
DF13* 148326 Jost
DF21/L658 28714 Cain
DF21/L627 20437 Reynolds
DF21/S190 19604 Williamson
DF21* N3362 Maher
DF49/DF23- 129036 Harrison
DF49/DF23- 117117 Holladay
DF49/M222 8999 Wilson
DF49/M222 (2nd) Unk Unk
DF49/M222 8999 Wilson
DF49/Z2961* 159039 Trainor
Z253/L226 77349 Casey
Z253/Z2534* 233265 Le Gall
DF41 240201 Walker
DF41 (3rd) 176148 Duffy
DF41 (2nd) Unk Unk
Z251 139697 Munn
Z251/L583 193834 Yurzditsky
L513* 228772 Reid
L1335/L1065 107327 Iles
L1335/L1065 258447 Taylor

[MJost]

Also add to the L21 ordered list
Self reported in the L21 Yahoo forum, Ray Murta 205635 Z253+ Z2534-, L1308-, F4036-. Mike's variety 253-1716-11 Leinster Ireland.

MJost

[bmattox]

Hello, Maddox here kit 25304. Is the genome test something that would be helpful and what would be gleaned from the results? Thanks.

[bmattox]

Yikes, I saw the price. Are there any grants to help defray the cost? Thanks.

[TigerMW]

Hello, Maddox here kit 25304. Is the genome test something that would be helpful and what would be gleaned from the results? Thanks.

I finally got something useful accomplished re: L21*. I was able to get the Davis project admin to forward to the below a request to test for both L21 and DF13. (EDIT: New news: and 3 of these guys responded)

47238 Theodorus Davis b1775 VA
52253 Francis Davis, b.c.1765,SC
178565 Abel Davis b 1799 SC d. 1866 MS
N82291 Philip Davis, 1816- 1888
36001 Abner Hanford Davis b c 1852 Jackson Co MS. In TX
117433 Abner Hanford Davis 1854 Jackson CO. MS
15580 Daniel Davis 1858 Ind < Daniel Davis 1827 Ind

Hopefully, one will take up the tests. I think they are a potentially important group with a possible deep ancestral connection with Maddox, who is L21*.

I have 7 Davis's and 2 Maddox's assigned to variety X13-131411. They all have 385=13,14 426=11 439<=11 458>=17 576<-17 557<-17 (464=14,14,15,17), which is a pretty strong STR signature so I think odds are good they are in the same subclade.

However, the Maddox's also have 389b=17 520=21 572=10 while the Davis' have instead 390=23 392=14. It is not a given they are of the same subclade and this could be outstanding example of convergence. If the Davis folks end up L21*, it would be nice to know of any suspected Old World origins they have. We know Davis is a common Welsh name, but they don't have any MDKA's listed across the pond.

Bmattox, as far as the costs of the SNP tests, I don't know of any grants or anything like that. There are occasions where people pool their money though.

[k.o.gran]

Has anyone done any analysis on testing of phylogenetically equivalent SNPs around L21? I know some of the L21* persons have tested a lot of these. The SNPs are:
L459 (L21)
Z245 (L21)
Z260 (L21)
Z290 (L21)
Z2542 (DF13)

-Kai